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Old 03-26-2013, 04:32 PM   #751
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Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
I haven't been to the NORRA race since 2010, and I'm not going this year. And I'm not making any assumptions of good or bad, I'm just informing as best I can. NORRA is pretty slow at getting this type of information out, so I'm trying to help.

I've known for a long time that Strong Bad and plenty of others would not like this type of change. But it's not me doing it, it's NORRA. I'm not a member of NORRA and I have no decision making powers over them.

I did tell Ken at NORRA that the sh*t would hit the fan as soon as this was announced, and he said "bring it on".
Wait....what????? You add your personal agenda to NORRA and you aren't even going to show up??? WHAT THE FUCK??? If you aren't even going to be part of it, maybe you should stop screwing it up for those of us who are. Jesus Scott really, what the hell are you doing???? Bending Ken's ear on rally stuff and now trying to back peddle and blame it generically on "NORRA" and you aren't a member and have no official position.....

I guess you guys don't realize what a huge advantage it gives two seat cars and how bad it rat fucks the single seat guys. Good thing its only going to be 20 miles, but the idea is what is out of place.
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Old 03-26-2013, 05:00 PM   #752
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Originally Posted by az45 View Post
You've been once and your not going this year?
It was lots of fun, but I enjoy a different aspect of racing more these days.

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Originally Posted by az45 View Post
Why are you lobbying for it if you know its going to create a problem?
To some, dirt, rocks, sand, and bumps are problems in racing, for others they are the challenge that is the essence of the the race. The same goes for a secret unmarked course, roadbook, and multiple stages. They are only problems if you chose to look at them that way.

I quit "lobbying" NORRA over a year ago when I started my Diabolical Rally project. Now I help NORRA understand the ins and outs off this type of rally format, help them implement the aspects they choose to take on, and try to educate everyone on how it can work and how best to prepare for it. It would actually help me if they dumped the whole roadbook thing. But as long as they are going to do it, I'd like to see them get it right. And I'd like to help you guys see the positive aspects.

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Originally Posted by az45 View Post
Will no GPS make it more fun?
It can, if you choose to see navigation as one more challenge in the race that you will overcome. Does dust, the smell of gasoline, early morning wakeups, bumpy roads, and all the "crap" that comes at you in a typical Baja race make it fun? For an outsider that stuff sounds worse than hell, but for a desert racer it's why you do it.

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If you're a hard core rally guy, just leave your GPS at home. If your a vintage guy, ride a vintage bike with a roll chart. If you're both, use both.
For 95% of the race, that's the way it is. Is 5% too much to try out?

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The car guys will have the biggest issue with this, so they should make it for the bikes only.
Apparently there have been enough car guys looking forward to the navigation challenge to convince Mike to throw in that 5%. And I suspect there are a few bike guys who won't like it, at least until they try it. So I still don't see this being a bike specific thing.

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Ken and the staff have enough to do with out adding in one more timing/scoring dynamic.
The timing and scoring are exactly the same as far as I know.
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:11 PM   #753
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Originally Posted by Strong Bad View Post
Wait....what????? You add your personal agenda to NORRA and you aren't even going to show up??? WHAT THE FUCK???
My agenda isn't to push them to do it, it's to help them get it right if they choose to do it. I asked if they needed me for anything during the race, and they said no. I put all that work into the roadbooks and GPS files over the years and I donít even get a free hotel room! I agree, WTF!
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Originally Posted by Strong Bad View Post
If you aren't even going to be part of it, maybe you should stop screwing it up for those of us who are. Jesus Scott really, what the hell are you doing???? Bending Ken's ear on rally stuff and now trying to back peddle and blame it generically on "NORRA" and you aren't a member and have no official position.....
Seems a bit "strong" for such a tiny piece of the course. I'm a helper just like many of the other helpers that are not racing it. I think you're giving me more power and credit (or blame) for this than I deserve. Mike and Ken and all the others are big boys who make their own decisions. They chose, all on their own, to provide roadbooks, call it a rally, and not allow prerunning long before I even knew of the event. I did point out some loopholes and flaws with their initial system, so I guess I deserve a tiny bit of credit, maybe 5% of the 5%. I knew this heat was coming before I made the post, but it's still best for everyone to know sooner rather than later, and to understand how best to deal with the technical aspects.

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Originally Posted by Strong Bad View Post
I guess you guys don't realize what a huge advantage it gives two seat cars and how bad it rat fucks the single seat guys. Good thing its only going to be 20 miles, but the idea is what is out of place.
As I pointed out before, in many circumstances a roadbook is better than a GPS. If you're prerunning, then you might know where the nasty hazards are, but prerunning is not allowed. The roadbook tells you exactly where they are, and what they are. The GPS file doesnít have that information. There are advantages and disadvantages both ways.

Doesnít a 2-seater with a co-dog and a GPS provide a big advantage over a single-seater with only a GPS? Itís not clear at all which puts the single-seater at a greater disadvantage, GPS or roadbook.

Personally I donít think one is ďbetterĒ than the other. They are just different ways to find your way to the finish.
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:21 PM   #754
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Strong Bad

The more you say the bigger ASS you become.
You have been around a log time you claim to
Know a lot of people.
You should know how it works
Mike likes the $$$ the Modern vehicles and bikes bring in
And they will Dictate the way of NORRA
In the Future (IMO)
Look at the Number of modern vehicles and motorcycles
compared to vintage Modern out numbers them by quite a bit

Think what you want to think but the mighty dollar will prevail
Or NORRA will fade away again

Good luck on building the race truck
It looks like it's coming along great
We will have to have a beer or two in Mexico
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:43 PM   #755
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Not much is gonna get solved here. Go to the source. I have a Noob question to anyone who has Dakar experience or other similar races. I've noticed that usually the racers in Dakar are wearing these big heavy jackets with what I guess is body armor underneath. Isn't that hot? Wouldn't a roost protector with elbow pads me more comfy? My guess answer to my question is, they don't want to get dehydrated with their sweat evaporating. So they create a little micro climate under the big jacket and cool off with vents in the jacket. Just a guess. Is it better to run a jacket in a race like the Mexican 1000, with possible upper 90 degree temps? Thanks.
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:49 PM   #756
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Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
My agenda isn't to push them to do it, it's to help them get it right if they choose to do it. I asked if they needed me for anything during the race, and they said no. I put all that work into the roadbooks and GPS files over the years and I donít even get a free hotel room! I agree, WTF!
Seems a bit "strong" for such a tiny piece of the course. I'm a helper just like many of the other helpers that are not racing it. I think you're giving me more power and credit (or blame) for this than I deserve. Mike and Ken and all the others are big boys who make their own decisions. They chose, all on their own, to provide roadbooks, call it a rally, and not allow prerunning long before I even knew of the event. I did point out some loopholes and flaws with their initial system, so I guess I deserve a tiny bit of credit, maybe 5% of the 5%. I knew this heat was coming before I made the post, but it's still best for everyone to know sooner rather than later, and to understand how best to deal with the technical aspects.

As I pointed out before, in many circumstances a roadbook is better than a GPS. If you're prerunning, then you might know where the nasty hazards are, but prerunning is not allowed. The roadbook tells you exactly where they are, and what they are. The GPS file doesnít have that information. There are advantages and disadvantages both ways.

Doesnít a 2-seater with a co-dog and a GPS provide a big advantage over a single-seater with only a GPS? Itís not clear at all which puts the single-seater at a greater disadvantage, GPS or roadbook.

Personally I donít think one is ďbetterĒ than the other. They are just different ways to find your way to the finish.
Hog Wild, This is my first post in this forum so please excuse my ignorance but wouldn't this "New" form of your version of road books possibly help you out in the long run? I'f i'm not mistaken, you run a Dakar like prep deal that people hire you to help with the use of road book navagation. Personally I think it's great for all those guys that travel halfway around the world who have never used it and Dakar has pretty much used it exclusively. NORRA on the other hand is titled "The happiest race on earth" due to it's simplicity and relaxed atmosphere. I remember you talking about this over on RDC quite a while ago and SUGGESTING that they should go this route but I don't remember you mentioning anyone at NORRA contacting you about getting something going.

Personally I think its a conflict of interest for you to be talking NORRA into going this route because you could benifit. This is NOT the history of off road racing, this is the history of Dakar and rally which is not what NORRA is. I'm pretty sure NORRA thinks this is a great idea because your talking them into it. Having been involved in off road racing since the late 70's watching my dad race and also been involved in one way or another with all 3 of the NORRA events, I think there is only a SMALL group of people who really like this idea.

As for 2 seaters having an advantage, it is a HUGE advantage! Co-rider can have his face buried on the road book calling out turns and hazards while the driver can keep his nose glued to the race track. Personally I like the GPS with no markings, that way you still have to keep your eyes open for hazards but if there is no road book no one has a huge advantage. Rory Ward
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:50 PM   #757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baja Dad View Post
Strong Bad

The more you say the bigger ASS you become.
...Mike likes the $$$ the Modern vehicles and bikes bring in
And they will Dictate the way of NORRA
I somewhat disagree with this. He's a good guy with a lot of passion for his views. And I actually hope the modern vehicles DON'T drive the direction of NORRA. The race is super cool because of the vintage vehicles, people, and course, and the somewhat laid back multi-day stage format. The roadbook and secret course is cool for those who get it, and not so cool for some others. I actually don't care if they drop the roadbooks or go 100% roadbooks only (because other roadbook events are coming to fill the void). I do care if they only do it sort of halfway, which is what they have been doing. It doesn't make sense to do both roadbooks and GPS and have the course known ahead of time.
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:53 PM   #758
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Simple question -- Approx how many single seat cars will be at Mex1k?

On the flip side... bike guys take a way bigger risk taking their eyes off the trail than a 1-seat car guy does when looking at the roadbook or gps. Bike guys must slow down or pick the time the look very carefully.
So... big deal the car guys (very few) have to back off the throttle a tiny bit for a few miles to study. Seems fair.

I have done a 6-day rally with only roadbook (pre GPS days) and loved it!! It's so much fun!
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:08 PM   #759
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Originally Posted by Idahombre View Post
Not much is gonna get solved here. Go to the source. I have a Noob question to anyone who has Dakar experience or other similar races. I've noticed that usually the racers in Dakar are wearing these big heavy jackets with what I guess is body armor underneath. Isn't that hot? Wouldn't a roost protector with elbow pads me more comfy? My guess answer to my question is, they don't want to get dehydrated with their sweat evaporating. So they create a little micro climate under the big jacket and cool off with vents in the jacket. Just a guess. Is it better to run a jacket in a race like the Mexican 1000, with possible upper 90 degree temps? Thanks.
Both east coast guys I chased for last year wore cordura type jackets and swore by it. I've not done it like that but I can see the benefits and its been explained to me that it exactly as you've answered. Which I believe is KLIM's explanation also.
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:12 PM   #760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bajaboundmoto View Post
Simple question -- Approx how many single seat cars will be at Mex1k?

On the flip side... bike guys take a way bigger risk taking their eyes off the trail than a 1-seat car guy does when looking at the roadbook or gps. Bike guys must slow down or pick the time the look very carefully.
So... big deal the car guys (very few) have to back off the throttle a tiny bit for a few miles to study. Seems fair.

I have done a 6-day rally with only roadbook (pre GPS days) and loved it!! It's so much fun!
There are about the same amount of single seaters as vintage bikes.
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:14 PM   #761
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Originally Posted by beechum1 View Post
Both east coast guys I chased for last year wore cordura type jackets and swore by it. I've not done it like that but I can see the benefits and its been explained to me that it exactly as you've answered. Which I believe is KLIM's explanation also.
Ummmm.....this could turn into the same kina question as which is the best oil to use .....but would love to hear it, trying to decide myself which to do. To the roadbook, GPS, black helicopter, bigfoots, etc......everybody has to race the same course, "challenges are neither good nor bad just challenges"
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:18 PM   #762
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Wow, lots of fired-up posts here.

A few thoughts...
- The new section did not make the cost of the event go up $800 nor did it make the fun-factor of your crews diminish. It's 5%, no biggie. You could write those course notes on your gas tank or a few small sheets of paper on your bars. And nothing is going to change for your crews. The meeting spots will still be known and simple.
- If your crew is heading south days early they should be stoked! It's a non-issue for them unless they've never been south and are clueless anyway. It will be super easy to figure out. I bet if you tell HW in private that your buddies are going to be watching you pass by Scorpion Bay or Gonzaga and will those places be on the course he'd probably tell you "yes" or "no". I mean really, how many places are there your buddies are gonna go to hang a few days? Not many.
- I do not think we need to know the length of each special but more like IF the special is over 100-120 miles and IF there will be a Mag7 in there. Again, not difficult to overcome.
- Jonah Street practided for YEARS with a goofy ass homemade roll chart holder he whipped up out of scrap wood! Why are people buying all this fancy shit? I used the $60 plastic 6" manual holder from Acerbis. I have a few of them new here too if anyone needs.
- BajaDad likes to get all "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" all the time.
- Yes the Dakar riders wear armor suits with jackets over. Many have drinkers built into the jacket. Most carry supplies and stuff in jacket. I don't think anyone wears a bum bag. Yes a jacket seems hot but you stay more hydrated being sweaty rather than the wind blowing your skin dry.
- Personally I'd rather see Norra throw some curves at the long time Baja racers by adding little bypasses to the typical routes everyone knows, and make it count with a penalty for not doing it. In '10 the actual route bypassed the whoops (off to the side) before the SF dump, but very few of us did it. Guys just bombed thru the whoops like they know. Lame.

Everyone relax, it's going to be simple, it'll be fun, and IMO, HW is just the messenger.
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:19 PM   #763
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I somewhat disagree with this. He's a good guy with a lot of passion for his views. And I actually hope the modern vehicles DON'T drive the direction of NORRA. The race is super cool because of the vintage vehicles, people, and course, and the somewhat laid back multi-day stage format. The roadbook and secret course is cool for those who get it, and not so cool for some others. I actually don't care if they drop the roadbooks or go 100% roadbooks only (because other roadbook events are coming to fill the void). I do care if they only do it sort of halfway, which is what they have been doing. It doesn't make sense to do both roadbooks and GPS and have the course known ahead of time.

SB, He is a GOOD guy !!!!
but drops the F bomb WAY to much!!!!!

If you can find me in LA Bay I will buy you a beer !!!!
BBM what up ? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Here is an example why I like Roadbooks over GPS From what I saw last year
Some of the guys with out the Roadbook last year Bomb up the Asphalt at the start of Day three and did not get in the sandwash.
( They did not know to turn left into it )
They just read the GPS and twisted the Gas harder. That was a HUGE advantage But it was not the course.......

Roadbook is so much more FUN and makes you think more
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Baja Dad screwed with this post 03-26-2013 at 07:32 PM
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:42 PM   #764
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Hog Wild, This is my first post in this forum so please excuse my ignorance but wouldn't this "New" form of your version of road books possibly help you out in the long run? I'f i'm not mistaken, you run a Dakar like prep deal that people hire you to help with the use of road book navagation.
Rory, first of all, I appreciate the questions and the respectful way you present them.

The roadbook stuff is not new, it's just new to most Baja racers. I don't have training events anymore. I refer people to Jimmy Lewis or Darren Skilton for that (they donít know yet that itís a money loosing activity). But I have supplied roadbooks to Jimmy and Darren for that type of training, and I do charge a bit to prepare, print, and deliver those roadbooks. It's a loosing deal for me if you look at the time versus the money, but I enjoy contributing to the success of our guys going to Dakar, so I keep doing it.

Yes NORRA going the roadbook route might help me a bit, but it could also hurt me. I'm planning an event that will compete for some of the same people who race NORRA. So I suppose my roadbook and other work for NORRA is helping send my own potential future customers to my competitor. But I don't look at it that way. I have a good job that pays well. All this race related stuff has been for fun, as a hobby. Whatever is fun, that's what I do!

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Personally I think it's great for all those guys that travel halfway around the world who have never used it and Dakar has pretty much used it exclusively. NORRA on the other hand is titled "The happiest race on earth" due to it's simplicity and relaxed atmosphere. I remember you talking about this over on RDC quite a while ago and SUGGESTING that they should go this route but I don't remember you mentioning anyone at NORRA contacting you about getting something going.
NORRA had roadbooks right from the start, before I even knew what NORRA was. When I entered their first race (in large part because it was rally format with roadbooks), I saw their roadbook on the website weeks before the event. It was in a format that could not be used in a bike style roadbook holder, and it was not in the somewhat standard format used around the world. So I offered to convert their roadbook into the proper format, print a bunch of copies, and bring them to registration so those with roadbook holders would have something useable. They said yes to that, and Iíve been helping them with the roadbooks ever since.

Eventually I got involved with cleaning up their GPS files (at their request) because they were having problems and they also were not providing files for those using Garmin units. That effort went well, and Iím sure it benefited everyone using a GPS. So, I even help them support those using GPS! Hell, even I used a GPS a little bit when I raced it. It was allowed, so I did it!

Last year they asked me to find a new course route in an area they had problems. I did that too, and that section will be used this year as well. That had nothing to do with roadbooks or rally specific stuff. They just needed a course fix, and I knew how to get it done quicker than them.

All that work to help you guys have a good time, and all I get is a hammering for something I only had a small hand in!

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Personally I think its a conflict of interest for you to be talking NORRA into going this route because you could benifit.
I think I covered this pretty well above and in earlier posts, but Iíll go over it again briefly. I think youíre way overestimating my power over them. I have spent a few HUNDRED hours helping them over the years, and Iíve MAYBE profited at best a couple hundred bucks from it. Hardly an effort to line my pockets! And if that were my motivation, what would be wrong with helping them and getting a benefit back from it? I wonít deny I would love to see more people get into rally racing and go do Dakar. Itís a SUPER cool event that everyone that can pull it off should do!

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This is NOT the history of off road racing, this is the history of Dakar and rally which is not what NORRA is. I'm pretty sure NORRA thinks this is a great idea because your talking them into it.
Again, they planned to use the basic rally format way before I came along. And they have been telling me from the start, they want to move further in that direction but they have to take it slow to allow everyone to learn.

I think youíre projecting your vision of the ideal race onto them (just like youíre accusing me of doing). The multi-day stage format was never the standard for off-road here. Yet NORRA wanted to do it that way right from the start, way before I came along. So it seems they are not trying to DUPLICATE the past, they are picking a path that is focused on vintage, but includes new and old ideas. How is that my fault? Remember their motto, it goes something like this: ďHonoring the Past, Forging the FutureĒ. I donít think that ďfutureĒ word means the history of off-road.

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Having been involved in off road racing since the late 70's watching my dad race and also been involved in one way or another with all 3 of the NORRA events, I think there is only a SMALL group of people who really like this idea.
I think most people donít really care, they just want to race. Here on ADV, the majority seem to be in favor of it. On RDC itís probably the other way. And Iíd guess many if not most of those against it would enjoy it if they approached it with a positive attitude and gave it a fair chance. I donít think the small section this year is enough of a taste to really understand it, but thatís just me.

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As for 2 seaters having an advantage, it is a HUGE advantage! Co-rider can have his face buried on the road book calling out turns and hazards while the driver can keep his nose glued to the race track.
Exactly like a co-driver with a GPS! And Iím not sure youíre aware, the roadbooks do not include curves in the road. They pretty much only include intersections, major hazards, and major things like start and finish points and some gas stations. Your ďhuge advantageĒ comment makes me think maybe you have no idea what the roadbook actually has in it, and maybe have never even used one that was done in this type of cross-country rally format. You do understand with a GPS the co-driver can call out the sharpness of every curve, in dust, mountain terrain and otherwise ďblindĒ situations, yet with a roadbook you donít have that information. So a GPS probably gives a 2-seater a bigger advantage over a single-seater than a roadbook does. You may have mistakenly made MY point.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:31 PM   #765
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Good luck on building the race truck
It looks like it's coming along great
We will have to have a beer or two in Mexico
I'll go for that beer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The race car in the NORRA display at the Mint:









I think it is sad that most of the Rally bike guys around here don't even know who Frank "Scoop" Vessels was to Baja or Offroad.
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