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Old 03-26-2013, 10:18 PM   #766
Racersonly
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Your “huge advantage” comment makes me think maybe you have no idea what the roadbook actually has in it, and maybe have never even used one that was done in this type of cross-country rally format. You do understand with a GPS the co-driver can call out the sharpness of every curve, in dust, mountain terrain and otherwise “blind” situations, yet with a roadbook you don’t have that information. So a GPS probably gives a 2-seater a bigger advantage over a single-seater than a roadbook does. You may have mistakenly made MY point.[/QUOTE]

Just to correct your last statement, I was the naviagtor for Collins Motorsports last year and had my nose in the "Road book" for 4 days, I can tell you from experience that they marked sharp corners, G-outs and dangers throughout the book. The GPS only shows the trail, not ANY of the hazards. The book is a bigger advantage than the GPS. The only good thing about the GPS is if you get turned around it's easier to find the course than to back track and look through the book to see what you missed. The idea behind NORRA is for people to enjoy the 4 day rally experience. personally i'd like to be drinking adult beverages after each stage with fellow racers than sitting back in my room trying to put tomorrows road book together. Road books have there place in rally's, my feeling is it is not for NORRA.

I respect your knowledge of the rally format and the help you give to American teams racing afar but PERSONALLY moving to this type of system for a race that is suppose to be more about the enjoyment of Baja. Enjoying some good old fashioned racing on a more toned down level than the Baja 1000 is the goal, especially since the majority of the guys racing are either retired racers, weekend warriors or enthusiasts.......not what i would call a stacked field of professional racers.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:23 AM   #767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racersonly View Post
Enjoying some good old fashioned racing on a more toned down level than the Baja 1000 is the goal
I can truly appreciate that. And it would be great if everyone actually looked at it that way. When I race it, that’s how I looked at it. But guys to my left and right were WAY more serious and got all worked up about all kinds of issues. And that split in attitudes continues today. "Toned Down" and "Race" are hard things to combine.

Too many get their serious race faces on and attack this race as a "win at all cost" deal. A Baja newcomer decides not to race a second time because he sees that the regulars take advantage of their local knowledge by taking shortcuts. A guy that solos the whole thing on a vintage bike comes away with nothing at the finish, while another who trailered his vehicle through much of the race walks away with a trophy. A retired guy says screw the rules and preruns the course because he can get away with it, while others follow the rules and loose because of it. A tech savvy guy takes the early released GPS tracks and uses Google Earth to plan off-course creative lines to gain an advantage, while others want the race determined in the dirt, not on the computer. Some of this is fine at other events, but for whatever reason NORRA has rules against some of it, but no means to enforce those rules.

In my mind they should enforce each rule they have, or get rid of it. If they want to level the playing field a bit to attract more competitors, then do it. Otherwise get rid of the rules that restrict the creative planners. If they want that laid-back attitude throughout the race, then they need to do something to mellow out the more serious people.

At the moment they are leaning towards stronger enforcement of their current rules, at least relative to the course. That's why there is a "secret" section. And it's hard to keep it secret if the GPS tracks are provided ahead of time, which is partly why the roadbook comes into play.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:27 AM   #768
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I can truly appreciate that. And it would be great if everyone actually looked at it that way. When I race it, that’s how I looked at it. But guys to my left and right were WAY more serious and got all worked up about all kinds of issues. And that split in attitudes continues today. "Toned Down" and "Race" are hard things to combine.

Too many get their serious race faces on and attack this race as a "win at all cost" deal. A Baja newcomer decides not to race a second time because he sees that the regulars take advantage of their local knowledge by taking shortcuts. A guy that solos the whole thing on a vintage bike comes away with nothing at the finish, while another who trailered his vehicle through much of the race walks away with a trophy. A retired guy says screw the rules and preruns the course because he can get away with it, while others follow the rules and loose because of it. A tech savvy guy takes the early released GPS tracks and uses Google Earth to plan off-course creative lines to gain an advantage, while others want the race determined in the dirt, not on the computer. Some of this is fine at other events, but for whatever reason NORRA has rules against some of it, but no means to enforce those rules.

In my mind they should enforce each rule they have, or get rid of it. If they want to level the playing field a bit to attract more competitors, then do it. Otherwise get rid of the rules that restrict the creative planners. If they want that laid-back attitude throughout the race, then they need to do something to mellow out the more serious people.

At the moment they are leaning towards stronger enforcement of their current rules, at least relative to the course. That's why there is a "secret" section. And it's hard to keep it secret if the GPS tracks are provided ahead of time, which is partly why the roadbook comes into play.

So TRUE and VERY WELL SAID
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:29 AM   #769
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Scott, I do not think it says anywhere that prerunning is not allowed. In fact Mike Pearlman took several racers on a prerun recently, Walker Evans and a couple of the Vegas guys. I guess if you want to prerun you have to ask Mike for the map.



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My agenda isn't to push them to do it, it's to help them get it right if they choose to do it. I asked if they needed me for anything during the race, and they said no. I put all that work into the roadbooks and GPS files over the years and I don’t even get a free hotel room! I agree, WTF!
Seems a bit "strong" for such a tiny piece of the course. I'm a helper just like many of the other helpers that are not racing it. I think you're giving me more power and credit (or blame) for this than I deserve. Mike and Ken and all the others are big boys who make their own decisions. They chose, all on their own, to provide roadbooks, call it a rally, and not allow prerunning long before I even knew of the event. I did point out some loopholes and flaws with their initial system, so I guess I deserve a tiny bit of credit, maybe 5% of the 5%. I knew this heat was coming before I made the post, but it's still best for everyone to know sooner rather than later, and to understand how best to deal with the technical aspects.

As I pointed out before, in many circumstances a roadbook is better than a GPS. If you're prerunning, then you might know where the nasty hazards are, but prerunning is not allowed. The roadbook tells you exactly where they are, and what they are. The GPS file doesn’t have that information. There are advantages and disadvantages both ways.

Doesn’t a 2-seater with a co-dog and a GPS provide a big advantage over a single-seater with only a GPS? It’s not clear at all which puts the single-seater at a greater disadvantage, GPS or roadbook.

Personally I don’t think one is “better” than the other. They are just different ways to find your way to the finish.
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:35 AM   #770
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I've always wondered how many of the Dakar bike deaths were caused by the rider looking at a roadbook instead of at the track. Of course nobody will ever know.



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Simple question -- Approx how many single seat cars will be at Mex1k?

On the flip side... bike guys take a way bigger risk taking their eyes off the trail than a 1-seat car guy does when looking at the roadbook or gps. Bike guys must slow down or pick the time the look very carefully.
So... big deal the car guys (very few) have to back off the throttle a tiny bit for a few miles to study. Seems fair.

I have done a 6-day rally with only roadbook (pre GPS days) and loved it!! It's so much fun!
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:39 AM   #771
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That is my point pre-running is a blast but if it's not available for everyone it should be available for no one
There's no money at stake in this event so What would the vantage be of going ? for bragging rights amongst your buddies
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:55 AM   #772
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That is my point pre-running is a blast but if it's not available for everyone it should be available for no one
There's no money at stake in this event so What would the vantage be of going ? for bragging rights amongst your buddies

Because it's FUN. It's impossible to enforce a no-prerun policy in Baja when the roads are open to the public and in many areas there is only one practical route that NORRA will use for the Vintage equipment.

You don't even need a 2013 map to prerun.

You can take any one of the previous NORRA gps maps (2010, 2011, 2012), use them to prerun and end up seeing a high percentage of the course they will use in 2013. There are only so many places you can run Vintage equipment down that narrow peninsula.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:33 AM   #773
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Vintage is overrated. The last time I looked in class XI bug was a class XI bug
100 %of those cars in the race can go Everywhere
If a class XI Volkswagen bug Can Race the score Baja 1000 course and finish
Then all these vehicles that at one time where top level race cars
Can do the same just a little bit slower
It's funny hearing all this stuff about vintage!

I love the history of Baja And the vehicles that have raced up and down the peninsula
I was in the 1969 Mexican 1000 In a Two seat buggy with my dad
I love seeing all these older cars Resurrected from the boneyard to live again
There's no reason to be Arguing over anything this is a fun event

Any race organization can and should enforce the rules
And yes you can enforce the no pre-run rule
Don't give out the map until the night before the event to anyone!
Don't supply GPS files to anyone
And if anyone is caught using a GPS there disqualified
If anyone is caught free running 30 days prior to the event there disqualified with no refund
It only takes A few times To happen and people will stop doing it
But back to the real thing at hand
This is a fun event let's keep it that way whether you use GPS or roadblock Everyone needs to drive and ride safely and make it to the big party at the end
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Old 03-27-2013, 02:19 PM   #774
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When I was six years old my mom told me that "life isn't fair, and the sooner that I adjusted to that the happier I would be" or something pretty close...

the guy that's going nuts over placing/position, perception of being slighted etc will always have something to talk/bitch about, and thats cool, thats his program, but you'll never fix that with rules as there is always wiggle room, interpretation, and opportunity to straight up cheat.

I used to race in the Triumph Thruxton Cup, its a spec road race class with AHRMA, three guys had cheater engines, the rest of the field did not, we could have asked for tear downs yadda yadda, instead we just didn't respect the guys with the motors. No bullshit, no tension, they were just looked down on and they had to live with themselves. We are our own judges and have to live with our own program.

If you shortcut you know you did, and if you place well as a result and take a bit of anothers glory as a result you own that too. Thats all the motivation that 90+% of amateur hobby racers need.

That's my $.02 - Happy Wednesday - Can't wait for the race. I bet it'll be good times.
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Old 03-27-2013, 02:19 PM   #775
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Originally Posted by baja-chris View Post
Scott, I do not think it says anywhere that prerunning is not allowed. In fact Mike Pearlman took several racers on a prerun recently, Walker Evans and a couple of the Vegas guys. I guess if you want to prerun you have to ask Mike for the map.
Strange, it used to be in the rules, but now it's not. I'll check and see if that's what they intend.

I know about that recent prerunning. I watched them every step of the way. Fortunately they did not give away the secret part of the course, at least as far as I could tell. But the secret is already leaking out, so I guess as usual some get an unfair advantage.

If they really want to allow prerunning, and they don't want to be seen as giving favortism, then they need to release the course way ahead of time. They are going in the opposite direction with the release of the course, which is what's frustration to me. They need to decide one way or the other which approach they are taking instead of going half way in two different directions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baja-chris View Post
I've always wondered how many of the Dakar bike deaths were caused by the rider looking at a roadbook instead of at the track. Of course nobody will ever know.
Nearly every death in recent times has been explainable, at least to some extent. For example my friend Elmer Symons who died in Dakar 2007. He died taking a bit of a shortcut.

How many people die or are seriously hurt in Baja prerunning, or chasing a race because there's time pressure for the crews, or because the hazards are not marked in the official GPS file, or because some driver is following the GPS line in blinding dust at crazy fast speeds? I don't think traditional Baja racing should be banned or avoided because of these things. Racing is dangerous no matter how you do it. If racing were 100% safe, I'd loose interest!
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HogWild screwed with this post 03-27-2013 at 02:25 PM
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:38 PM   #776
Strong Bad OP
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Originally Posted by Baja Dad View Post
Vintage is overrated. The last time I looked in class XI bug was a class XI bug
100 %of those cars in the race can go Everywhere
If a class XI Volkswagen bug Can Race the score Baja 1000 course and finish
Then all these vehicles that at one time where top level race cars
Can do the same just a little bit slower
It's funny hearing all this stuff about vintage!
I think you are having LSD flashbacks from the 60's! Do you have any idea how many times there isn't a single Class 11 car finish the Baja 1000 when it runs to La Paz (or Cabo)?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Baja Dad View Post
Any race organization can and should enforce the rules
And yes you can enforce the no pre-run rule
Don't give out the map until the night before the event to anyone!
Don't supply GPS files to anyone
And if anyone is caught using a GPS there disqualified
If anyone is caught free running 30 days prior to the event there disqualified with no refund
It only takes A few times To happen and people will stop doing it
But back to the real thing at hand
This is a fun event let's keep it that way whether you use GPS or roadblock Everyone needs to drive and ride safely and make it to the big party at the end
Again the flash backs must have kicked in. You think NORRA (or even SCORE for that matter) has the manpower to track down every bike or car that is on "the race course" (otherwise know as access roads) between races to make sure it isn't a racer rather than a regular schmo just out having fun??? Hey I'm driving down to Loreto next week, if I go down through Coco's will I be pre-running?? What if I want to visit my friends Mike & Cholie (former owners of Del Borracho bar in Loreto) out in San Juanico am I pre-running if I go out through San Ignacio? What about Tim Morton??? Is he pre-running when he gives a tour within 30 days of a race? Any idea how much time Cam Steel spends playing in Baja?? Is that all pre-running???

No road books, no GPS, no course markings. Get to the check points where you come out at the highway any way you can/want. Like it was in 1969.
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:49 PM   #777
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Ok here is something to help us remember that this is suppose to be fun too.


Plus I'm selling them in the Flea Market to raise me some travel money and I'll give a free one to each one of you guys if you stop bitching at each other, I hate it when mommy and daddy fight.
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:58 PM   #778
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I hate it when mommy and daddy fight.
No fight, just a friendly discussion of interesting issues. I'm quite sure everone has learned a few helpful things through this discussion. BTW, we're not mommy and daddy, unless the others want to admit they are girls. It's more like brothers wrestling!
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Old 03-27-2013, 05:18 PM   #779
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If anyone is caught free running 30 days prior to the event there disqualified with no refund
So on April 7th if I'm leading one of my business rides (which I will be) on the section from LA Bay to Ignacio and I am seen by Mike or Ken or whomever does that mean I'm DQ'd (i mean, IF i was entered)?
Oh, and by the way, I won't be riding that section anyway along with much other Mex1k uses cuz there's way better stuff out there to ride.
Or like X on here who just did a Baja ride... he's racing too so is he DQ'd.
Like Chris and Strong said, it's impossibe to enforce.
Not starting a pissing match, just sayin'

And for sure Marks hit his head too many times... I'm with Chris saying "there's only so many places you can run vintage". There is no freekin' way I'd want to race (drive) some of these NORRA cars thru a LOT of typical SCORE course. For 1 it wouldn't be fun and 2 it would destroy beautiful machinery.

Damn, I think you guys type too much and I just added to it.

Oh yeah, I forgot the.... "!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
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Old 03-27-2013, 05:25 PM   #780
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Don't forget that the San Filipe 250 course essentially ran D1SS1 and D1SS2. =)

If the course is essentially the same every year, I don't think it matters if they allow pre-running. If the course is going to be substantially different, I would suggest they just keep it secret until race day.

The organizer taking a special few on a pre-running trip with a new course isn't super cool though...
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