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Old 03-27-2013, 11:41 AM   #586
wxwax
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Lost in all this is the Force India fiasco. Two things occur to me. One is the obvious, what on earth did they do with their hub-and-nut design?

The other is their race craft: why did they bring in two cars on the same lap? Obviously Sutil's abnormally long stop made a mess of things, but separating the pit stops by a lap would have avoided that, no? Seeing the cars stacked up in the pit box reminded me of a sorry scene from a few years ago.

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Old 03-27-2013, 12:12 PM   #587
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I don't see Mark being an ass about it. He is a team player and will race on. I guess time will tell!
That is the nub of the issue. Webber is not a self-absorbed asshole. Vettel knows it and being that he is a self-absorbed asshole he knows he can mistreat Webber without any consequences (from Webber).
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Old 03-27-2013, 12:34 PM   #588
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Don't these guys in F1 only get a certain number of engines for the season, otherwise they are docked points? I think its 8 engines. That's why the Red Bull drivers were instructed to dial it back and conserve the engines...
Then it really isn't "racing"! Shame, because I really like the machines.
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Old 03-27-2013, 12:36 PM   #589
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Originally Posted by wxwax View Post
Lost in all this is the Force India fiasco. Two things occur to me. One is the obvious, what on earth did they do with their hub-and-nut design?

The other is their race craft: why did they bring in two cars on the same lap? Obviously Sutil's abnormally long stop made a mess of things, but separating the pit stops by a lap would have avoided that, no? Seeing the cars stacked up in the pit box reminded me of a sorry scene from a few years ago.

Teams do this all the time. If the strategy and data point to having tire changes on the same lap, they will go for it. Its a calculated risk and the crews train for this. Sure there is some risk, and I suspect the team didn't have this problem on their radar, or they wouldn't have tried.

Again every last constructor's point means $$$, so if they can get away with a few tenths by bringing in on the same lap, they will do it.
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Old 03-27-2013, 12:40 PM   #590
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Then it really isn't "racing"! Shame, because I really like the machines.
These types of rules were put into place to bring down some of the costs to play. I believe they were trying to even out some of the team advantages and allow the lesser budget team to be able to better compete.

The idea was to increase the amount of racing, but I am not sure if they are getting their intended results when you factor all the rules into the game.
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Old 03-27-2013, 12:44 PM   #591
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Originally Posted by wxwax View Post
To me, this is a natural outcome of Red Bull treating Vettel like the multi time World Champion that he is.


Team orders is just a term, not a Military Decree. So much hand wringing over nothing.
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Old 03-27-2013, 12:58 PM   #592
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These types of rules were put into place to bring down some of the costs to play. I believe they were trying to even out some of the team advantages and allow the lesser budget team to be able to better compete.

The idea was to increase the amount of racing, but I am not sure if they are getting their intended results when you factor all the rules into the game.


To be fair, the cost restrictions and the competitive racing are two separate issues.

With the former, costs were out of hand. The commentators were talking about teams which were designing cars and engines exclusively for qualifying. Rich teams were on the verge of building an entire low-mass chassis purely for qualifying. Crazy expensive. F1 still can't agree on a spending cap, but teams have agreed to restrict testing, restrict the number of engines and transmissions which can be used, among other things.

Lowering the cost of entry was a somewhat separate issue. Pushed by Spanky, the idea was to offset the influence of auto manufacturers and fill the field with teams that were interested in racing, not manufacturing. Spanky felt the sport was vulnerable to the vicissitudes of Renault, Toyota et al and he was right. His solution wasn't though. Caterham, Marussia and the now-departed HRT could barely qualify, let alone change the way F1 does its business.

Addressing the issue of competitive racing was actually extraordinary. F1 -- I believe both the FIA and the teams, separately -- polled fans over a few years to find out if the processional racing was a problem. Indeed it was. What was extraordinary is that F1 actually wanted to hear from its fans. Not every day that that happens.

In an attempt to stop the processionals, the FIA tweaked the design rules several times in the hope of making passing easier. None of them worked.

But two things have worked and have either transformed race days for the better (if you're me) or for the worse (if you think it's a gimmick.) The first change is DRS. Now cars aren't slaves to front end instability when they try to make a pass at the end of a long straight. Love it!

The other is built-in tire degradation. This one is more controversial. But clearly it's a wild card that is causing teams problems. And when teams have problems, it's harder for one team to dominate. (This is why there's concern about Lotus having an edge with tires.)

Blah, blah, blah!
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Old 03-27-2013, 12:59 PM   #593
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Team orders is just a term, not a Military Decree. So much hand wringing over nothing.
Team orders is not "just a term." It's a contractual obligation, printed on paper and signed by Sebastian Vettel. He is in breach of contract. If they wished, they could fire him.
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Old 03-27-2013, 01:14 PM   #594
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James Allen has a more strategic take on The Real Housewives of Malaysia:

Quote:
The race turned on a very odd decision: In the early stages of the race, as the track dried out, the team’s decision to pit Vettel early on lap five to change onto the new medium tyres was very much out of character. Red Bull has traditionally been conservative on changeover situations from wet to dry and the way they handled Webber was more typical of their approach. The Australian pitted two laps later than Vettel, with the result that he took over the lead of the race for the second stint.
...
But having done all of that, at the final stop something very unusual happened; having been given the stop preference throughout the race, coming in a lap earlier than Vettel for the second and third stops, Webber was then disadvantaged at the final stop.
...
Despite the fact that the team had every reason to want the drivers to hold station after the final stops – and instructed them to do so – the circumstances led Vettel to see an opportunity, which had been created by this strategic decision. He wanted to redress the earlier strategic mistake, which had cost him the lead at the first stop. The rest is history.
And about Mercedes:

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Mercedes had concerns about the fuel consumption of both drivers and asked them to save fuel in the second half of the race, Hamliton’s being the more critical. So in the final stint, when Rosberg closed up to Hamilton and asked for permission to pass the situation was again somewhat artificial. There was no reason to let him past as they were not going to catch the Red Bulls and at no stage had Rosberg been ahead of Hamilton.
Good stuff.

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Old 03-27-2013, 01:50 PM   #595
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Team orders is not "just a term." It's a contractual obligation, printed on paper and signed by Sebastian Vettel. He is in breach of contract. If they wished, they could fire him.
You sure about that? You sure there is no language ensuring that the team will do all in its power to help Vettel to wins the driver's Championship?

Seriously. Hand wringing.

There was not a single radio station that said "this is an order" or which told Vettel to give the position back. It was a mild embarrassment. And now high drama which the sport loves.

I doubt any of them are losing any sleep at this point. The writers have plenty to write about. The punters get to argue on the 'net. Hand wringing.
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Old 03-27-2013, 03:41 PM   #596
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We "punters" get to do more than argue. After all we are the original source of all the money. We buy the tickets, subscriptions and sponsor products. Without fans, the whole thing comes to a screeching halt.

I won't support a sport with team ordered finishes.


Vettel's pass on Webber was the top highlight of the race.
I would pay to see that happen again.
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Old 03-27-2013, 03:56 PM   #597
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We "punters" get to do more than argue. After all we are the original source of all the money. We buy the tickets, subscriptions and sponsor products. Without fans, the whole thing comes to a screeching halt.

I won't support a sport with team ordered finishes.
I don't buy anything. I suppose I sit through the commercials though. And I am a lot less likely to buy a Red Bull this week. I am sure they are crushed.


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Vettel's pass on Webber was the top highlight of the race.
I would pay to see that happen again.


BTW-I am not particularly a Vettel fan or a Webber hater. That is what the arguments seem to come down to; Webber fans vs. Vettel fans.
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:31 PM   #598
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You sure about that? You sure there is no language ensuring that the team will do all in its power to help Vettel to wins the driver's Championship?
Yeah, as sure as I can be without reading the contract myself. As I understand it, it's part of the boilerplate of an F1 driver's contract.

Thou shalt obey.

Vettel is an employee. He shalt obey. A surprising number of people who are on current F1 teams have commented on Vettel's behavior. Interestingly, to a man they condemn it. I have yet to hear a voice raised in support of him. Not even his enabler-in-chief, Helmut Marko, has been willing to absolve him.

It's unanimous. He's a douche.

BTW, we were discussing the F1 driver's hierarchy a few pages back. I'd put Alonso and Hamilton as 1-2, with Vettel 3rd.

But a wild card may be revealed this season. We don't really know what Nico Rosberg can do in a good car. I have a feeling he's pretty darn good. Last season Schumacher's age was given as a reason for Rosberg's superiority. No doubt it was a factor. But Rosberg often did quite well, even winning a race in a very bad car. He may yet surprise those who don't rate him or who don't have him on their radar.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:53 AM   #599
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I'm not really a Vettel fan or a Webber fan.
I'm a Raikkonen fan above all.
"Just leave me alone, I know what I'm doing."
" I was having a shit."
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Old 03-28-2013, 04:57 AM   #600
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I'm not really a Vettel fan or a Webber fan.
I'm a Raikkonen fan above all.
"Just leave me alone, I know what I'm doing."
" I was having a shit."



me too (but everyone here know that)
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