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Old 04-22-2013, 03:20 AM   #16
Shadow 9er
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After having a couple low-speed tip overs, I hope the learning curve is beginning to level out for her...I get it that sometimes a person needs a real world practical experience to set their learning.

Oh, and some of you seem to be harping about not EVER using your front brake while you're in a turn or a corner.... in a parking lot a sub-5mph, yes, but in other situations..? or am I reading these posts wrong?

I submit that it's extremely necessary to learn how to modulate the front brake, learn that it does more than just on/off. it's far better to modulate than never.
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Old 04-22-2013, 03:37 AM   #17
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I've been telling people for years, going fast is easy.

Its going slow that is hard on a bike.
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Old 04-22-2013, 06:46 AM   #18
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I have to laugh at the wave thing. I dumped the clutch on my bike while sitting still because I was talking to my friend and absent mindedly let go of the clutch to reach up and undo my helmet. The bike lurched forward but I did not fall over. My friend laughed his ass off.
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:14 AM   #19
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I know I'm going to do the, let go of the clutch, thing sooner or later.
And the "always use the front brake it's where all your stopping power is" is so ingrained in my head I forget & use it at low speed also. Haven't dropped it doing that yet...but have had some oh shit moments.
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:35 AM   #20
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I'm going to be the meanie here because someone has to say it.

Your wife lacks the physical and mental coordination to ride and should stop either permanently or until she receives further training. If her reflexes are bad at 0-3 MPH when something unexpected happens what makes you think they will be better at 60 MPH?
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:47 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzItLies View Post
Tell ya what OP, just this minute walked in from teaching a BRC... we see this a lot.

One thing, main things, we have to repeat, over and over and over and over and...

DON'T GRAB THE FRONT BRAKE WHEN THE WHEEL IS TURNED!!!

I mean, we're seriously yelling... and yet... people continue to do it. It really takes 2 days of range training, 5 hrs ea, to drive the point home. Even then a few still have trouble.

you have my sympathy.

Cheers
This ^

...probably would have helped avoid at least one of the instances you describe.
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:11 AM   #22
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I use my front brake with the wheel turned at parking lot speeds all the time. I think new riders should be taught how to do this as it will help break them of the tendency to grab the brake rather than smoothly applying it.
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:06 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
I use my front brake with the wheel turned at parking lot speeds all the time. I think new riders should be taught how to do this as it will help break them of the tendency to grab the brake rather than smoothly applying it.
Exactly! - Although for a new rider, especially one who is short-of-leg and/or light weight relative to the height/mass of their motorcycle, emphasizing the need to have the handlebars square when coming to a stop is probably more important. The reasons for not doing so may have to do with other aspects of machine control, rider posture, etc. If you're not sure what is causing the problem, it may be difficult to fix. Smoothly applying the front brake rather than grabbing it is an important skill irrespective of whether someone has the bars turned. The OP's wife may be ready for an MSF experienced rider course or some other form of additional training.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:14 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
I use my front brake with the wheel turned at parking lot speeds all the time. I think new riders should be taught how to do this as it will help break them of the tendency to grab the brake rather than smoothly applying it.
Well, that's not what the MSF teaches, and they've done decades of research and studying data, and taught what has to be in the millions of new riders across the Country.

YOU may realize, and it sounds like you do, that while the front brake (and or rear) can be used when cornering, it takes a lot of experience and awareness that you can only use if very little (aka trail braking).

But teaching that to new riders? never been on a bike before? Absolutely NOT!! Be aware, more than half of these people are scared shitless. They are feeling so much anxiety it's palpable.

As much as we suggest deep breaths etc etc, it's very difficult to get them to relax. Even mentioning simple things become difficult if we can't relax. It's a monumental thing for many of them to be on a motorcycle.

The MSF doesn't teach trail braking until you get to their most advanced class, The Military Sport Bike class. Even in the Experienced Rider Course, it's not mentioned.

Basically, what they're trying to accomplish, is to not have to have newish riders learn the hard way that you can't use that front brake that hard with the bike leaned over. So they recommend riders do all their braking with the bike straight up, then get off the brakes and lean it over and power around the corner.

In slow tight turns, and you have to slow a little before the turn, rear brake only. Then get off the brake before the turn and use the friction zone and power around the turn. This changes for scooters as they have to simulate a clutch by using the rear brake throughout the turn and keep the revs up.

And to someone else... no, you don't modulate the front brake, you either have ABS or you don't. Our full stopping power is both brakes to their fullest extent without locking up either tire.

The technique for using the front brake on a motorcycle is called "a delayed firm squeeze". We delay the firmness of the squeeze until the weight of the bike gets on the front wheel and flattens out the contact patch, NOW at this point we can be firm, not before. Never modulate the brake, yer increasing your stopping distance.

Newish riders don't understand these things, and tend to grab that brake hard even if the wheel is turned or they're leaned over etc. And when they do that, that's called "learning the hard way". Learning the easy way is when you take a class and have competent instructors.

Cheers
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:32 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzItLies View Post
And to someone else... no, you don't modulate the front brake, you either have ABS or you don't. Our full stopping power is both brakes to their fullest extent without locking up either tire.
Um, what? You don't need full stopping power every time you use the brakes. Most times you just need to gently shed a little speed, so you'd modulate the brake, not grab and squeeze to the fullest extent without locking up...

ETA:
mod·u·late (mj-lt)
v. mod·u·lat·ed, mod·u·lat·ing, mod·u·lates
v.tr.
1. To adjust or adapt to a certain proportion; regulate or temper.
2. To change or vary the pitch, intensity, or tone of (one's voice or a musical instrument, for example).
3. Electronics
a. To vary the frequency, amplitude, phase, or other characteristic of (electromagnetic waves).
b. To vary (electron velocity) in an electron beam.

From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/modulate
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goodburbon screwed with this post 04-22-2013 at 11:34 AM Reason: add defintition
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:38 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzItLies View Post
Well, that's not what the MSF teaches, and they've done decades of research and studying data, and taught what has to be in the millions of new riders across the Country.

YOU may realize, and it sounds like you do, that while the front brake (and or rear) can be used when cornering, it takes a lot of experience and awareness that you can only use if very little (aka trail braking).

But teaching that to new riders? never been on a bike before? Absolutely NOT!! Be aware, more than half of these people are scared shitless. They are feeling so much anxiety it's palpable.

As much as we suggest deep breaths etc etc, it's very difficult to get them to relax. Even mentioning simple things become difficult if we can't relax. It's a monumental thing for many of them to be on a motorcycle.

The MSF doesn't teach trail braking until you get to their most advanced class, The Military Sport Bike class. Even in the Experienced Rider Course, it's not mentioned.

Basically, what they're trying to accomplish, is to not have to have newish riders learn the hard way that you can't use that front brake that hard with the bike leaned over. So they recommend riders do all their braking with the bike straight up, then get off the brakes and lean it over and power around the corner.

In slow tight turns, and you have to slow a little before the turn, rear brake only. Then get off the brake before the turn and use the friction zone and power around the turn. This changes for scooters as they have to simulate a clutch by using the rear brake throughout the turn and keep the revs up.

And to someone else... no, you don't modulate the front brake, you either have ABS or you don't. Our full stopping power is both brakes to their fullest extent without locking up either tire.

The technique for using the front brake on a motorcycle is called "a delayed firm squeeze". We delay the firmness of the squeeze until the weight of the bike gets on the front wheel and flattens out the contact patch, NOW at this point we can be firm, not before. Never modulate the brake, yer increasing your stopping distance.

Newish riders don't understand these things, and tend to grab that brake hard even if the wheel is turned or they're leaned over etc. And when they do that, that's called "learning the hard way". Learning the easy way is when you take a class and have competent instructors.

Cheers
I would like to see an exercise where you have to stop in the middle of doing the figure 8 box using only the front brake. That would teach those newbies how to be smooth and gentle with that lever I bet!
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:54 AM   #27
AzItLies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodburbon View Post
Um, what? You don't need full stopping power every time you use the brakes. Most times you just need to gently shed a little speed, so you'd modulate the brake, not grab and squeeze to the fullest extent without locking up...

ETA:
mod·u·late (mj-lt)
v. mod·u·lat·ed, mod·u·lat·ing, mod·u·lates
v.tr.
1. To adjust or adapt to a certain proportion; regulate or temper.
2. To change or vary the pitch, intensity, or tone of (one's voice or a musical instrument, for example).
3. Electronics
a. To vary the frequency, amplitude, phase, or other characteristic of (electromagnetic waves).
b. To vary (electron velocity) in an electron beam.

From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/modulate
Okay, I'll take the time and explain this too, but you might want to take (or re-take) the class sometime...

In an Emergency situation, you're going to go with what your habits are, it will become like an instinct, without you having to think about it.

So someone pulls out in front of you, doesn't see you. Your habit is to (say) use one finger on the front brake only. Or maybe your habit is to just use the rear brake, or modulate the brakes... you get the idea.

And in the middle of this Emergency braking situation you realize... Oh SHIT! this is an emergency!!! I should be using both brakes to the fullest extent so I can stop!!! And right after that flashes through yer head is when you'll slam into the car...

But if yer habit had been to always use both brakes, that's what you would have done, and you may have avoided the crash all together or lessened the impact so that you walked away from it...

It's perfectly understandable that like in a parking lot you just drag the rear brake or something, I mean we're doing like 5mph. But out on public roads, when shit can and does happen, always have the habit of using both brakes.

It's like this; would you drive your car the way you do now if only 1 brake on 1 wheel was working? Of course not, if someone stops short in front of you, you'll probably run into them. So with your bike, always be prepared to use your full stopping power, in case you need it.

The car analogy is a good one because generally, the front brake is about 70% of our stopping power and the rear is 30%. 30 is about 25, thus 1 brake on 1 wheel working.

To clarify, the MSF is about "best practices". I mean, anybody can go and do whatever the hell they want. They are not the police. But what they are saying is if you want to have a long enjoyable motorcycling career, this is what they recommend.

Do it or don't do it, your call.

Cheers
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:12 PM   #28
slartidbartfast
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
I would like to see an exercise where you have to stop in the middle of doing the figure 8 box using only the front brake. That would teach those newbies how to be smooth and gentle with that lever I bet!
That would not make "those newbies" much safer on the road but would scare and/or injure quite a few of them. Counterproductive methinks.

Tell you what - Why don't you contact MSF and suggest your change to them? You'd be bypassing tens of thousands of hours of curriculum development, debate, refinement, and millions of hours of ridercoach experience. Someone might give you an award for such an innovative and novel idea.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:13 PM   #29
Tripped1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzItLies View Post
It's perfectly understandable that like in a parking lot you just drag the rear brake or something, I mean we're doing like 5mph. But out on public roads, when shit can and does happen, always have the habit of using both brakes.
Nope, with two fingers I can unload my rear tire to the point that the throttle actually locks it. Those same two fingers are more than capapable of standing the bike on its nose.

I've actually started doing sort of a stab when I only use the rear while I'm clamping on the front, once I have the suspension compressed there is no more rear break.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzItLies View Post
The car analogy is a good one because generally, the front brake is about 70% of our stopping power and the rear is 30%. 30 is about 25, thus 1 brake on 1 wheel working.
Maybe on a Cruiser or long Touring rig, on a 55" sportbike if you are getting 10% out of the rear wheel you aren't breaking very hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzItLies View Post
To clarify, the MSF is about "best practices". I mean, anybody can go and do whatever the hell they want. They are not the police. But what they are saying is if you want to have a long enjoyable motorcycling career, this is what they recommend.

Do it or don't do it, your call.

MSF isn't the bible. They make a number of calls in order to prevent litigation and to preserve their equipment. All well and good, but as they tell you in MSF "congrats, you can now ride in a parking lot."

Things like four finger braking, never throttling with the brake covered, no trail braking. Things like that.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:16 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by slartidbartfast View Post
That would not make "those newbies" much safer on the road but would scare and/or injure quite a few of them. Counterproductive methinks.

Tell you what - Why don't you contact MSF and suggest your change to them? You'd be bypassing tens of thousands of hours of curriculum development, debate, refinement, and millions of hours of ridercoach experience. Someone might give you an award for such an innovative and novel idea.
I see what you're saying. Basically thin the herd, survival of the fittest. Maybe line the box with spike strips. Woe be the individual that drops it in the box of doom.
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