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Old 04-30-2013, 02:06 PM   #466
achtung3
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It is an MV F4 05
The bike itself runs hot, 160-190+.
The normal temp around here is between 50-60, now somedays maybe in the upper 60's.
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:44 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by achtung3 View Post
It is an MV F4 05
The bike itself runs hot, 160-190+.
The normal temp around here is between 50-60, now somedays maybe in the upper 60's.
OK got most of info needed, MV is a 1,000cc class modern bike being operated in mostly warm temps ... what size Speedcell?

not familiar with Speedcell. with the rapidly adoption of LiFePO4 batteries by the motorcycle industry. unlike conventional lead acid mfg who's got LOADS of osha, epa, etc. etc. etc. to deal with.

literally anyone can start a LiFePO4 battery business in their garage with little to no regulation.

Speedcell appears to use A123 cells (26650) in 4s, then stacked in parallel to add more AH. 4cell = 2.3AH 8cell = 4.6AH and so on...

recommendation is to add a hard protective layer around battery. LiFePO4 batteries with only a shrink wrap protecting metal straps that connect cells are especially vulnerable to dead shorts.

if said LiFePO4 battery gets discharged HARD ... straps will get hot .. possibly melting shrink wrap. once shrink wrap is melted, metal straps are exposed. which could result in a fire from a dead short.

shrink wrap is designed to be heated with an airgun. which then shrinks wrap around cells. heat from straps connecting cells will shrink wrap further. with a good chance of exposing strap, which could result in a dead short. IHMO shrink wrap alone is not a good choice for an outside layer on LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries. your mileage of course may veri...

it's not unusual for a motorcycle to draw 200+ amps... 4.6AH battery discharge at 43C or 200amps. those tiny straps carry a LOT of current and can heat up.

A123 (26650) cells are rated:
  • Maximum Continuous Discharging :70A, 28.0C rate
  • Maximum Impulse Discharging (< 10 sec): 120A, 48.0C rate


_cy_ screwed with this post 04-30-2013 at 04:19 PM
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:34 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by Honkey Cat View Post
It worked until it caught a small fire and burned terminals.
Yes, they do have a tendency to do so. Just ask Boeing.

Li-Ion battery pack struck by a projectile. Quite spectacular.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:43 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
one advantage AGM shares with LiFePO4 is a low self discharge.
That would apply to a GEL as well; part of the VRLA family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
like cars some late model bikes have loads of on board electronics which comes with a hefty parasitic drain.
And that is exactly why a low self discharge in these batteries is a totally unimportant aspect to the user unless you are a dealer storing them on a shelf or disconnecting the battery.

The parasitic drain far out does any self discharge drain.

Its sort of like worrying about a 15 pound weight savings on a 500 pound motorcycle.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:51 PM   #470
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some enlightening is in order if you think all PB chargers will work for LiFePO4 cells. your particular charger may work fine, but there's considerable differences in lead acid chargers.
So tell me, why would a crude charging system on your average vehicle be OK to charge a LiFePO4 battery?

Can you point me to a post in this thread that discusses the charging of these batteries.

I mean, if the cells are in series, you definitely want to charge each cell individually for long life because charging them in a string does not guarantee balanced charging. What circuitry in detail is housed in any of these batteries to do so?
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:29 PM   #471
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Originally Posted by Global Rider View Post
So tell me, why would a crude charging system on your average vehicle be OK to charge a LiFePO4 battery?

Can you point me to a post in this thread that discusses the charging of these batteries.

I mean, if the cells are in series, you definitely want to charge each cell individually for long life because charging them in a string does not guarantee balanced charging. What circuitry in detail is housed in any of these batteries to do so?
"glazed eyeball alert"

which batteries? there's been several posts on charging for several different chemistries ..

it's been stated many times already ... but here goes again.. reason why LiFePO4 matches a 12v charging system when a lithium cobalt (LiCoO2) doesn't match a 12v charging system is ....

voltage for a 4s (4 in series) LiFePO4 ranges from 12.85v to 14.6v ... almost all 12v charging systems charges at 13.8v to 14.2v. then factor LiFePO4 discharge curve ... 14.6v to 13.3v constitutes about 10% of power available. 13.3v to 12.85v represent the majority of power available. at 12.85v 20% remains... at 12.75V 10% remains... don't go below 12.85v for max life.

hope I've not lost everyone yet ... this means a standard 12v charging system mates to LiFePO4 in 4s config almost perfectly without mods. then factor LiFePO4 are extremely stable and hard to catch on fire.

main drawback to LiFePO4 batteries for motorcycles is cost ... due to raw cell costs .. LiFePO4 mfg have only so much room to work with. unfortunately due to marketing pressures ... some mfg have been forced to inflate Amp hour ratings into PB/EQ. IMHO this has resulted in folks buying LiFePO4 batteries too small for the job. which results in unhappy customers.

and yes to some folks .. saving 22lb (925 odyssey 24lb vs EarthX ETX36 3lb 11oz) on a 368lb bike (R80G/S dry) is worth the extra trouble and $$$. to others... NO way, much cheaper to loose 15lb of blubber ... AGM still works excellent.

now let's take a brief look at lithium cobalt (LiCoO2). which are the cells used in Boeing 787... Lithium cobalt (LiCoO2) batteries are inherently unstable and need all sorts of safeties to keep li-ion batteries from going to thermal runaway (explosion)

before we cover lithium cobalt (LiCoO2) voltages ... let's cover why LiCoO2 need overcharge protection. a single LiCoO2 cell operates between 3.65v to 4.2v fully charged with a very linear discharge curve. LiCoO2 is fully charged at 4.2v, but will accept current so long as current is delivered until thermal runaway (explosion) occurs. what makes LiCoO2 inherently unstable is the tiny window this happens in... overcharging a LiCoO2 cells by little as 1/2v could cause that cells to go into thermal runaway (explosion) which then overheats neighbor cells, which then also goes into thermal runaway .. and so on...

this is why Boeing installed insulation walls between cells. so if any one cell goes into thermal runaway, hopefully neighbor cells will be insulated and not be drawn into a chain reaction.

unfortunately Boeing doesn't have the option of changing to more stable LiFePO4 chemistries. as that would entail years of paperwork to approve new systems.

now let's switch gears to why LiCoO2 doesn't match 12v charging systems. putting aside dangers of LiCoO2 going into thermal runaway.

LiCoO2 operates between 3.65v to 4.2v ... in 3s config = 10.95v to 12.6v fully charged... not a match..

in 4s config = 14.6v to 16.8v or not a match for a 12v system charging between 13.8v to 14.2v.

please read earlier posts detailing how Optimate Lithium LiFePO4 chargers balance cells without separate balance ports.

... clear as mud .. no ...

_cy_ screwed with this post 05-01-2013 at 08:44 PM
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:37 PM   #472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
which batteries?
The one pointed out in my post.

Lets not go off topic.

You stated
Quote:
some enlightening is in order if you think all PB chargers will work for LiFePO4 cells. your particular charger may work fine, but there's considerable differences in lead acid chargers.
So again and based on your statement, why would a crude charging system on your average vehicle be OK to charge a LiFePO4 battery?
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:54 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by Global Rider View Post
The one pointed out in my post.

Lets not go off topic.

You stated

So again and based on your statement, why would a crude charging system on your average vehicle be OK to charge a LiFePO4 battery?
1. sorry I'm not understanding what you are asking?

2. already answered in detail in last post (#472) why a standard 12v charging system is an almost perfect match for LiFePO4 batteries in 4s config.

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Old 05-02-2013, 01:06 AM   #474
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Installed 12-cell Antigravity YTX10 in place of Yuasa lead-acid.
Weight 1.2 vs 3.2 kg!!!!

Shall try and remember to write about its performance in a year or so...
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:40 AM   #475
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Installed 12-cell Antigravity YTX10 in place of Yuasa lead-acid.
Weight 1.2 vs 3.2 kg!!!!

Shall try and remember to write about its performance in a year or so...
thanks for dropping in ... all feedback are welcome!

12cell antigravity = 6.9AH actual .. an excellent battery
what model motorcycle and what's the coldest temps bike will need to start at?
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:25 AM   #476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
1. sorry I'm not understanding what you are asking?
Well you told one poster...
Quote:
some enlightening is in order if you think all PB chargers will work for LiFePO4 cells. your particular charger may work fine, but there's considerable differences in lead acid chargers.
I am assuming by PB you are referring to lead acid battery chargers. If that is the case, how is charging of Li-Ion batteries handled by a charging system that cannot be much cruder than the alternator in a car or motorcycle?


Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
already answered in detail in last post (#472) why a standard 12v charging system is an almost perfect match for LiFePO4 batteries in 4s config.
So they are charged as a string...in other words in a series of 4 Li-Ion cells. Thats not good. What controls the charging of each individual cell then?

Is there a charging controller within these Li-Ion batteries. A simple yes or no will suffice.

And since most if not all voltage regulators regulate to 14.2 to 14.4V on your average vehicle, how is a string of 4 cells fully charged? Its not!

BTW, what company do you work for at the moment?


Also...."Which is more reliable ... Points or Electronic Ignition for Airheads?"

One is more maintenance-free...problem is, it cannot be repaired roadside. When electronic ignition fails, you are walking. I can get my points system running again.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:12 AM   #477
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Originally Posted by Global Rider View Post
Well you told one poster...


I am assuming by PB you are referring to lead acid battery chargers. If that is the case, how is charging of Li-Ion batteries handled by a charging system that cannot be much cruder than the alternator in a car or motorcycle?




So they are charged as a string...in other words in a series of 4 Li-Ion cells. Thats not good. What controls the charging of each individual cell then?

Is there a charging controller within these Li-Ion batteries. A simple yes or no will suffice.

And since most if not all voltage regulators regulate to 14.2 to 14.4V on your average vehicle, how is a string of 4 cells fully charged? Its not!

BTW, what company do you work for at the moment?


Also...."Which is more reliable ... Points or Electronic Ignition for Airheads?"

One is more maintenance-free...problem is, it cannot be repaired roadside. When electronic ignition fails, you are walking. I can get my points system running again.
have already posted an elegant answer in post #472 on why LiFePo4 in 4s configuration is an almost perfect fit for 12v charging systems.

have you actually read it? sorry for having to dive into technical mumbo jumbo, but to answer some type questions. it just cannot be avoided.

#472 was written in the simplest possible manner and still be technically accurate. unfortunately it's not possible to answer certain questions with a simple yes/no. for instance not all LiFePO4 batteries are constructed the same. some have internal BMS (battery management system) some don't ... some have charging balance ports, some don't ... and so on.

yes PB = lead ... which as you know includes several different types of batteries. each has a slightly different charging profile. for instance gel cell batteries should not be charged much over 14.2v. so if you leave a gel cell on a battery maintainer/charger that puts out say 14.9v without a float mode. given enough time, that charger will end up killing your gel.

12v charging systems in automobiles and motorcycles almost universally will charge between 13.8v to 14.2v range.

unlike battery chargers which run the gamut ... with output all over the place. one important factor is time .. killing a battery with incorrect voltage from a charger requires time. this is why using the wrong battery tender/charger can be fatal for batteries. it's hooked up to battery for months at a time.

if you take the time to actually read a few post back. several posts have already been put up explaining in technical detail how certain chargers work with AGM, Gel, wet PB and LiFePO4.

getting tired of typing ... besides for most folks including me ... reading too much of this type material all at once will put you to sleep zzzzzzzz...

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Old 05-02-2013, 12:03 PM   #478
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
please read earlier posts detailing how Optimate Lithium LiFePO4 chargers balance cells without separate balance ports.
Which post number?

You never did answer who you worked for at the moment.
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:06 PM   #479
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Originally Posted by Bli55 View Post
Shall try and remember to write about its performance in a year or so...
A piddly year?

Lets try in at least ten years. Then we'll know if it is any good.
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:09 PM   #480
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
yes PB = lead ... which as you know includes several different types of batteries. each has a slightly different charging profile. for instance gel cell batteries should not be charged much over 14.2v. so if you leave a gel cell on a battery maintainer/charger that puts out say 14.9v without a float mode. given enough time, that charger will end up killing your gel.
That why we use the Xantrex TrueCharge 2 charger. You select the charge algorithm. And it has temperature compensation where it counts...at the battery, no on the circuit board.

Others like the Battery Tender, Optimate, CTEK...well....no further comment.
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