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Old 04-23-2013, 10:14 PM   #106
clicheche
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[QUOTEDyno testing is certainly very helpful when it comes to setting up serious race bikes, which are properly maintained, and owned by riders who know what they are doing.

However for those who apparently are unable to grasp even very basic concepts related to engine set up and tuning, and ride play bikes which in most cases are poorly maintained, then dyno set up is to a large extent irrelevant.

In this thread much has been made of dyno testing carried out by Gordon Jennings some 40 years ago.

Today this has little relevance, other than from a historic perspective, and without exception play bike riders most of whom ride worn out old nails, would be well advised to run a lot less oil than serious competitors, which will provide cleaner pick up, increased power, and not quite so much smoke issuing from bikes being ridden at a snails pace.][/QUOTE]

this made me side slightly with twin shocker.
disclaimer: i know next to nothing. i just have a knack...?
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:33 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by anotherguy View Post
No. You made the claim now provide references. Otherwise it's simply internet bullshit.

And who said I haven't performed tests?
Your posts seem to confirm the fact you have little or no first hand experience, and certainly have never built a motor intended for serious competition. Those without first hand experience tend to rely on what they can find on the net, and in some cases books written 40 years ago. I suggest you move away from the idea of taking BS as gospel, and try using the correct fuel/oil ratio in your bike, and take note of how much better it runs. You will most certainly find that first hand experience is far more valuable than almost all of what you will find in books and on the net, and hopefully your bike will run quite a bit better.
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:38 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by clicheche View Post
[QUOTEDyno testing is certainly very helpful when it comes to setting up serious race bikes, which are properly maintained, and owned by riders who know what they are doing.

However for those who apparently are unable to grasp even very basic concepts related to engine set up and tuning, and ride play bikes which in most cases are poorly maintained, then dyno set up is to a large extent irrelevant.

In this thread much has been made of dyno testing carried out by Gordon Jennings some 40 years ago.

Today this has little relevance, other than from a historic perspective, and without exception play bike riders most of whom ride worn out old nails, would be well advised to run a lot less oil than serious competitors, which will provide cleaner pick up, increased power, and not quite so much smoke issuing from bikes being ridden at a snails pace.]
this made me side slightly with twin shocker.
disclaimer: i know next to nothing. i just have a knack...?[/QUOTE]

Anyone carrying out worthwhile development and testing of 2T motors, will keep the results of this very close to the chest, not least due to the fact it will very likely have taken them many hours to achieve very small gains, and this is the reason there is little or no information regarding this that can be easily found.
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:42 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by craydds View Post
That, I understand clearly - NO injector oil, nor "works in BOTH injection and premix" BS. I like the Bel-Ray MC-1, http://www.belray.com/bel-ray-mc-1-r...-2t-engine-oil , says it's for old air-cooled 2T's, may give it a go next time. (but it is awfully pricey, $$$) When I got my old YZ, the externals - engine, pipe, etc. - were drenched in oil and dirt and baked-on oil/dirt. Possibly the P.O. was running a 20:1 castor mix; maybe it has preserved the motor internals.
I used to use MC1, its a good oil, but there are much better ones available today, designed for use with modern alcohol bearing fuels. Avoid any dual purpose 2T oil which can be used in injector systems, as this is very thin, and can result in corrosion damage when used in pre-mix bikes.
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:43 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Mr. Carts View Post
I think I will stick with Blendzall @ 20to1.

Been using this ratio since my first Hodaka.
I think you would be very surprised indeed at how much better your bikes ran after exhaust and top end service, and running on the correct fuel/oil ratio.
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Old 04-24-2013, 05:52 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
Your posts seem to confirm the fact you have little or no first hand experience, and certainly have never built a motor intended for serious competition. Those without first hand experience tend to rely on what they can find on the net, and in some cases books written 40 years ago. I suggest you move away from the idea of taking BS as gospel, and try using the correct fuel/oil ratio in your bike, and take note of how much better it runs. You will most certainly find that first hand experience is far more valuable than almost all of what you will find in books and on the net, and hopefully your bike will run quite a bit better.

Why is it when asked to present collaboration you resort to petty insults designed to deflect attention from the fact you've done nothing other than blather about your belief. Scientific papers as well as SAE papers provide concurring findings by peers. Why do you have such difficulties when asked to do so?

I presented evidence supporting my findings on post #20. No carbon present in the dome,simply some splooge easily cleaned away with a rag. Care to explain why?
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Old 04-24-2013, 07:21 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
I used to use MC1, its a good oil, but there are much better ones available today...

I have been reading about the synth oils for PRE-MIX only, but much of it is the manufacturer's claims. What do you recommend?
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Old 04-24-2013, 10:27 AM   #113
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Why is it when asked to present collaboration you resort to petty insults designed to deflect attention from the fact you've done nothing other than blather about your belief. Scientific papers as well as SAE papers provide concurring findings by peers. Why do you have such difficulties when asked to do so?

I presented evidence supporting my findings on post #20. No carbon present in the dome,simply some splooge easily cleaned away with a rag. Care to explain why?
Suggesting you have no first hand experience was simply an observation of fact, and not intended to be insulting in any way. Sorry if you took it in the wrong way.
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Old 04-24-2013, 10:35 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by craydds View Post

I have been reading about the synth oils for PRE-MIX only, but much of it is the manufacturer's claims. What do you recommend?
Here in the UK I use Castrol XR77, as it has been specially developed to help with providing accurate plug colour readings when alcohol bearing fuels are being used.

You are quite right about manufacturers claims, which make choosing an oil very difficult.

However I dont honestly think there is likely to be a great deal of difference between any of the full synthetic, pre-mix only race oils, so would suggest one that can be found locally for a reasonable price, is more of a deciding factor than the manufacturer.
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:12 PM   #115
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This is my first time dropping in the old's cool thread..spend most my time in GS Spot and JoMomma..

You guys are..AWESOME!!!

BMW guys discussing oil have nothing on you..

I have a '07 KTM 250 XC..that being said and knowing there have been many advances in metallurgy and design from "Vintage" bikes and my modern day rig..I'll pass on my personal experience..

I bought my bike brand new..and for 5 years ran Amsoil Interceptor in it, at 50:1 (this is while I lived in Las Vegas..ie..high sustained RPM on most rides..) we moved to the Northwet..I pulled the bike all apart to go thru it..the piston and ring could have went back in..there was no wear (appreciable) and the bike was still making good power. I put a new slug and ring in..(I put the first new spark plug in at this time too..still carry the old as a spare..there is NOTHING wrong with it)and contacted Jeff Slavens in Colorado. I read that he was getting huge mileage out of his 300 2 stroke and this interested me. Many of you may know Jeff..he did/does much R&D for KTM and Yamaha over the years and is a KTM/Husaberg guru..

Jeff runs Amsoil Sabre (designed for chainsaws and small motors but according to Amsoil is fine for all power sports applications as well..) at 80:1. I went out last week end with some baseline jetting and the new mix..

The Sabre, even mixed "leaner" smokes way more than the Interceptor at a "richer" mixture..even though there was no real drooling..I can't really explain it, but even being jetted a touch rich (needed to drop needle one notch) the bike had a much different "feel" to the way it revved..it still ran great..and the difference in feel could absolutely be strictly jetting related..

As I was reading thru the thread..what stood out to me (among other things) was many said "well, I run Acme 123 oil at xx:1 and it never smokes..but if I run Acme 567 at xy:1 it does..seems the Brand or Make up of the oil will have just as much to do with the smoking quality of the oil as much or possibly more than the ratio..I for one wouldn't consider the smoke produced as ANY indicator of whether I am running my oil too fat or lean..but that's me.

As some have said..looking for drool build up may be a better indicator..but..with modern oils, and manufacturers trying to keep 2 strokes legal..the oils have gotten so clean burning and less smokey just so people don't complain about them, I'm not sure drool would be a good indicator either..

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Old 05-13-2013, 05:13 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by VEGASGSA View Post

BMW guys discussing oil have nothing on you..
This has been an enlightening thread for this BMW guy. Thanks to all for the information and discussion.
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Old 05-13-2013, 08:38 AM   #117
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i run Motul 710 in everything. synthetic, easy to find, seems to do the job.

50:1 in my '77 IT/YZ 250. ran it the same 50:1 in my KDX 200, KX 250, CR 480 when i had 'em. i haven't played around with the mix... just poured in 50:1 and jetted accordingly.

run it 60:1 in my chainsaw, 'cause that's about where it runs best.
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:51 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by VEGASGSA View Post
This is my first time dropping in the old's cool thread..spend most my time in GS Spot and JoMomma..

You guys are..AWESOME!!!

BMW guys discussing oil have nothing on you..

I have a '07 KTM 250 XC..that being said and knowing there have been many advances in metallurgy and design from "Vintage" bikes and my modern day rig..I'll pass on my personal experience..

I bought my bike brand new..and for 5 years ran Amsoil Interceptor in it, at 50:1 (this is while I lived in Las Vegas..ie..high sustained RPM on most rides..) we moved to the Northwet..I pulled the bike all apart to go thru it..the piston and ring could have went back in..there was no wear (appreciable) and the bike was still making good power. I put a new slug and ring in..(I put the first new spark plug in at this time too..still carry the old as a spare..there is NOTHING wrong with it)and contacted Jeff Slavens in Colorado. I read that he was getting huge mileage out of his 300 2 stroke and this interested me. Many of you may know Jeff..he did/does much R&D for KTM and Yamaha over the years and is a KTM/Husaberg guru..

Jeff runs Amsoil Sabre (designed for chainsaws and small motors but according to Amsoil is fine for all power sports applications as well..) at 80:1. I went out last week end with some baseline jetting and the new mix..

The Sabre, even mixed "leaner" smokes way more than the Interceptor at a "richer" mixture..even though there was no real drooling..I can't really explain it, but even being jetted a touch rich (needed to drop needle one notch) the bike had a much different "feel" to the way it revved..it still ran great..and the difference in feel could absolutely be strictly jetting related..

As I was reading thru the thread..what stood out to me (among other things) was many said "well, I run Acme 123 oil at xx:1 and it never smokes..but if I run Acme 567 at xy:1 it does..seems the Brand or Make up of the oil will have just as much to do with the smoking quality of the oil as much or possibly more than the ratio..I for one wouldn't consider the smoke produced as ANY indicator of whether I am running my oil too fat or lean..but that's me.

As some have said..looking for drool build up may be a better indicator..but..with modern oils, and manufacturers trying to keep 2 strokes legal..the oils have gotten so clean burning and less smokey just so people don't complain about them, I'm not sure drool would be a good indicator either..


Low smoke 2T oils produce mean reduced smoke, but the additives used to reduce smoke, do nothing to help combat engine wear, as low smoke oils are generally much thinner than fully synthetic PRE MIX ONLY 2t competition oils.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:07 PM   #119
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Spooge tells you where your at quite a bit, depending how much your cleaning / revving it out, you'll see it in extra oil dripping all over the back of your bike . You may want to adjust the ratio if your going to the dunes of if your going to be in the deep woods for the day.

I've been reading on 2T oils & the baseline for oil choice in 2 stroke bike oil is the JASO FD certification. From numerous oil threads alot of them came down to JASO FD.

One other trick I got from a builder is , on teardown inspect the oil puddle in the bottom of the case. You should have a 1/2" to 3/4" band of oil in the bottom of the case from what drips off the cylinder , case , & crank.

I "think" people have a hard time grasping modern technology. It's like 30 years ago & heads not having hardened valve seats. Valves would wear into the head & the head material would burn away. Now with more study in metallurgy you have a better use of ideal materials that will run 200,000 miles & show minimal wear. I have this problem myself when I hear of guys running 50:1 & 70:1. NO, NO you cant do that, but I know guys who "get away" with it. It really cant be "getting away" with it, the chemists must be developing better blends, how else can you explain it. Think of this 20:1 1970's & motor oil , 32:1 mid 80's & up with outboard oil. The manufacturer's had to give a mix ratio of the worst possible oil of the time for a safety margin, like they do with the jetting. "Now" you really have to consider the quality of what oil your using.
"Recreationaly" If your using extra spoogey marine follow what they did then 32:1, if you step up to JASO FD 40:1 ?, or if your running all out $20 a quart stuff 50:1 up to 70:1. Just my best guess , dont to me if you burn it up
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:17 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by 81cr450 View Post
Spooge tells you where your at quite a bit, depending how much your cleaning / revving it out, you'll see it in extra oil dripping all over the back of your bike . You may want to adjust the ratio if your going to the dunes of if your going to be in the deep woods for the day.

I've been reading on 2T oils & the baseline for oil choice in 2 stroke bike oil is the JASO FD certification. From numerous oil threads alot of them came down to JASO FD.

One other trick I got from a builder is , on teardown inspect the oil puddle in the bottom of the case. You should have a 1/2" to 3/4" band of oil in the bottom of the case from what drips off the cylinder , case , & crank.

I "think" people have a hard time grasping modern technology. It's like 30 years ago & heads not having hardened valve seats. Valves would wear into the head & the head material would burn away. Now with more study in metallurgy you have a better use of ideal materials that will run 200,000 miles & show minimal wear. I have this problem myself when I hear of guys running 50:1 & 70:1. NO, NO you cant do that, but I know guys who "get away" with it. It really cant be "getting away" with it, the chemists must be developing better blends, how else can you explain it. Think of this 20:1 1970's & motor oil , 32:1 mid 80's & up with outboard oil. The manufacturer's had to give a mix ratio of the worst possible oil of the time for a safety margin, like they do with the jetting. "Now" you really have to consider the quality of what oil your using.
"Recreationaly" If your using extra spoogey marine follow what they did then 32:1, if you step up to JASO FD 40:1 ?, or if your running all out $20 a quart stuff 50:1 up to 70:1. Just my best guess , dont to me if you burn it up
Its all your fault If my motor burns up... You wrote all this info on the internet. so It must be true! ˭M˭
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