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Old 05-15-2013, 10:39 AM   #211
roger 04 rt
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Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Could the popping be related to the SAS that ebrabaek still has in place? Unburnt fuel plus extra 02 from the fresh air pumped into the exhaust plus heat equal combustion in the header? One of the main benefits the KTM crowd reports after the removal of their SAS is elimination of popping (backfires) on deceleration.

Also, it would seem the extra O2 in the exhaust provided by the SAS would provide an erroneous reading from the O2 sensor. Well, technically the sensor would be reading the O2 levels properly but the O2 levels would no longer be representative of what just happened inside the motor.
I suppose that the secondary air could be a contributor but doesn't seem like the primary cause. When exhaust components are changed, the flow is now into a system that has different resonances, leading to the possibilities that pressure vs rpm changes at the exhaust valves; and to the possibility that fresh air enters the exhaust system from the tailpipe and causing popping when it meets residual fuel.
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Old 05-15-2013, 10:49 AM   #212
ebrabaek OP
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Good, we're on the same page. If you had some time, and could post three screen shots: afr targets, current learned trims, and current fuel map, that would be quite interesting to study.

Do you have a GS-911? Among other things, it would probably tell us when secondary air was enabled.
Awesome.
I will get the screen shots in a few minutes.... I do not have a GS-911, but have contemplated many times to get one. One fellow rider/member offered to sell me his. It sounds like this could benefit the tuning of the bike.... Yes...???
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Old 05-15-2013, 11:09 AM   #213
mousitsas
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Hi Mousitsas, You've asked a good question. The answer is a bit involved but I'll do my best not to overcomplicate a fairly complicated subject. Please look at this as a how the PC V works, not as a critique. Like most manufacturers, they don't have an incentive to clearly tell you all the trade-offs.

First, the simple answer. With or without Autotune, the BMS-K has a built-in Barometric Pressure sensor, a built in intake manifold Air Temperature sensor, a built in Battery Voltage sensor. You can disconnect the O2 sensor any time, and the BMS-K will run Open Loop, producing a fuel pulse based on RPM and TPS angle, and also compensate for Barometric Pressure, Air Temperature, Battery Voltage, and engine Oil Temperature during Warm-Up. These compensations are pretty accurate but not perfect. What the BMSK doesn't compensate for is Air Flow (dirty filter), air Humidity, Fuel Pressure or Fuel injector flow rate (slight clogging) or Ethanol Content of the fuel. That's the area that the BMS-K's powerful Closed Loop routines and Adaptation Values really shine. With Closed Loop running, it nails the correct fueling both in the Closed Loop areas ... and in all Open Loop areas ... using its Adaptation Values that it calculates during Closed Loop. (Of course what BMW considers correct is partly mandated by the EPA which is why we want to add fuel. !)

Autotune is a very different beast from the BMS-K's Closed Loop and Adaptation Values. And you can only have one of them at a time. If you connect the PC V with Autotune, you lose Closed Loop. Another factor to consider is, what does the BMS-K do when it can't run its Closed Loop program. The answer is it goes into a sort of Limp Home mode that is never seen on a Dyno run but that occurs while you ride. Here is how a well adapted R1150 would look, notice the AFR spread on the little insert chart, how tightly it holds to 13.8:1:

Here is the same bike with the O2 sensor disconnected. Notice how the Motronic compensates buy running high fuel and low fuel (rather than a straight line) and in the inset chart, how much the AFRs have been spread out.

So the PC V and Autotune get a stream like the one above and then add or subtract fuel to that up/down stream. Note though, under WOT like the Dyno run, the BMS-K is not running the Limp Home pattern and that's why Dyno tuners don't notice it.

Looking at the sample chart from Dynojet below, Autotune works by you filling in a table of AFR targets organized by Throttle Position and RPM (starting with the default table they provide). I've noticed their AFR targets are basic to say the least and not what you would want. (Something important to know is that the BMW designed targets also include a corresponding entry in the Spark Advance and Spark Dwell tables. Since you don't adjust Spark Timing with Autotune, you're pretty much guaranteed to be off the mark with Spark Advance--leading to the potential for pinging at worst or less than the best power.)

So you start with the table of AFR targets. Then there are two modes according to the write-up:
"The Auto Tune kit can be configured to run and correct at all times or by using the "map switch port" on the PCV. You can set it up so that you can switch back and forth between the tuning modes and the base map settings. You can also configure the Auto Tune kit to wait until the bike is at a certain operating temperature before beginning to make adjustments."
Autotune then fills in an adjustment factor when/if you ride your motorcycle under the TPS/RPM combination. You can see that to get a complete tune you have to run in every cell. The best way to use Autotune is "not running all the time" since these programs are know to be imperfect. You need to do some smoothing between adjacent cells quite often. But for the sake of your question, if you do run in correct-at-all-times mode. Then it will adjust over a few hundred miles depending on your riding style. That is much slower than the BMS-K's Adaptation Routines which have short term and long term trims which operate in realtime.

Going back to the issue of how to fill in the table below or whether to use their stock table, the basic AFR target table they ship looks to rich at low power settings and not rich enough at high power settings based on what I've seen.
Wow Roger, I was optimistic but didn't expect that! Your knowledge is invaluable to the forum. Thanks!
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Old 05-15-2013, 11:09 AM   #214
roger 04 rt
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
Awesome.
I will get the screen shots in a few minutes.... I do not have a GS-911, but have contemplated many times to get one. One fellow rider/member offered to sell me his. It sounds like this could benefit the tuning of the bike.... Yes...???
Personally, I would not be without one if I had your goals. Using the Log Realtime Values to CSV function I've helped others solve some very subtle problems. Here is a plot I have hanging around.

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Old 05-15-2013, 11:22 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Personally, I would not be without one if I had your goals. Using the Log Realtime Values to CSV function I've helped others solve some very subtle problems. Here is a plot I have hanging around.

Good grief.... I must have one of those...... Working on that right now....
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Old 05-15-2013, 11:25 AM   #216
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OK Roger....
Here are the three screenshots.....
Fuel Map, which is a base map only to correct for the idle hop of the 8GS.....



Then Target AFR.....



Then finally the trims after a few K miles.....
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Old 05-15-2013, 08:02 PM   #217
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Your tables are very interesting. There is no doubt that autotune is functioning and learning from the Wideband O2 sensor. In a way it's too bad you don't have a second bung near the first one so that you could monitor AFR and see if you're really getting your target AFR.

-I'm assuming you run ethanol.
-I'm going to have to think about where you have limits in your settings and will be back to you with some questions.
-It looks like at 6500 rpm and above for tps 10% and above the trim is maxing out at 10%.
-The 25% numbers may be max-out numbers too. And that's awfully large.
-With an AFR target of 13.2, really lambda 0.90, and running E10, you would expect about a 14% correction. Which is what we LC-1ers see.
-I'm surprised that some of the high rpm/TPS numbers aren't single digit or negative.
-Are the auto tune trims additive to the fuel map trims? If they are at 2%, 1250 rpm you're adding 45% to fuel—20% map plus 25% trim to hit 13.5. I question that. That doesn't seem right.
Does the PC V AT have a heater calibration or free air calibration mode? What altitude do you ride at? Widebands are altitude sensitive.

How would you feel about saving your current tables and then doing the following. Leave AFR targets as is, zero out the fuel table and trim table. Ride for a week and repost the trim table. Maybe even post it after each ride. It would be interesting to see it develop.

This is all pretty interesting.
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Old 05-15-2013, 08:47 PM   #218
ebrabaek OP
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Your tables are very interesting. There is no doubt that autotune is functioning and learning from the Wideband O2 sensor. In a way it's too bad you don't have a second bung near the first one so that you could monitor AFR and see if you're really getting your target AFR.
When we had it on the dyno ( I think about 30 runs through out the day) the 4 foot sniffer were awefully close to the values indicated by the AT. I know that is not as accurate, as it sat about 18 inches further back than the AT O2 bung.

-I'm assuming you run ethanol.
Actually down here on the NM border with old Mexico, we have very little ethanol. If I hop one state north to CO, I use Techron, as they run alot more ethanol than we do.

-I'm going to have to think about where you have limits in your settings and will be back to you with some questions.
Sounds great. Always here to learn more, and improve.

-It looks like at 6500 rpm and above for tps 10% and above the trim is maxing out at 10%.
-The 25% numbers may be max-out numbers too. And that's awfully large.
I am not sure what is going on there, but again these trims have NOT been accepted,and added to the base map. As we added my own CF pipe....then the headers, we saw a very big shift towards lean. The then BMS-K ( no PC-5/AT) were faltering far lean, as we were seeing the towards 18 AFR. I simply think that the 25% is needed in that power regime, to keep the target AFR. Mind you the base map is just about a Zero map, corrected for off idle throttle hop. imho....there is no way we would see such large numbers with stock header, incl, CAT, and pipe.

-With an AFR target of 13.2, really lambda 0.90, and running E10, you would expect about a 14% correction. Which is what we LC-1ers see.
Could be, as I have not tested for ethanol. The pumps states that it might include up to 10%, but I personally think it is lower.

-I'm surprised that some of the high rpm/TPS numbers aren't single digit or negative.
I would like to contribute this to the better flowing exhaust system. The stock BMS-K is barely keeping up.

-Are the auto tune trims additive to the fuel map trims? If they are at 2%, 1250 rpm you're adding 45% to fuel—20% map plus 25% trim to hit 13.5. I question that. That doesn't seem right.
Correct, they are not added, as the AT is inactive below 2%, the pc-5 runs with the 20%, that I added for the throttle hop. I think I can decrease that to 10%, but have not done that yet. As you hit the 2% the trim values is all, and the base map of 20 is negated. I do believe it takes a few seconds though, as I do follow the activation of AT at 2%, could be transitioned better. I think I will decrease the 20% to 10, and see if the hop changes, as that is the only reason for the 20%.

Does the PC V AT have a heater calibration or free air calibration mode?
I am not sure.

What altitude do you ride at? Widebands are altitude sensitive.
I was told that it adjust the altitude only through the O2, and what it measures, as it globally ( final fueling) is running closed loop thus will not need the pressure sensor, as compaired to open looppers... I guess below 2% thottle is open. It was dynoed at 5500 feet... I ride here in the southwest at 4500 feet, but have spend several days up to 11000 feet, and it simply is fantastic, practically so to speak.




How would you feel about saving your current tables and then doing the following. Leave AFR targets as is, zero out the fuel table and trim table. Ride for a week and repost the trim table. Maybe even post it after each ride. It would be interesting to see it develop.
Let me think of that. I will see if I can save the trim table..... I don't think I can, but I don't see why not, I can replicate most of it, with the exception of 700 miles of dirt.


This is all pretty interesting.
Thanks for your input Roger. I have been a little apprehensive to change anything, as it seems to work so very good from the get go, but I will think it over to erase the fuel trim table, as The current table have much technical dirt sections in there, but in reality, I cannot see why that would make a difference.

Cheers
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Old 05-15-2013, 08:57 PM   #219
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Roger.....after thinking about your question weather or not the trims are added to the base map......I now understand your question. Could be. The reason I am seing such a big drop in the computer mpg off idle. Tomorrow I will change the 20% off idle to 5 ....zero the trims....and have a look.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:19 AM   #220
roger 04 rt
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Hi Erling, I've been studying the Secondary Air function, Autotune algorithms and the interaction of Autotune and any map you have installed. For now, I think the best thing is to learn to save the maps you have for safekeeping and wait a little longer for me to get some feedback on how you may want to proceed.

The subjects I'm looking at now are:
  • When is the Secondary Air Valve actuated? (It seems this will affect Autotune.)
  • How long is the injection pulse at wide throttle angles? (You can't extend the injection pulse longer than the motor rotation period.)
  • Are the base map and trim map additive? (It seems that they are.)
  • Dynojet says that it takes a while to calculate an Autotune correction for a given cell. How long?

Did your tuner disconnect the Secondary Air Valve at the connector or plug it?

On your PC V settings page, what is the delay time that is set before Autotune can start?

But rather than risk giving you bad advice, I'd like to look at this longer and discuss with some other F bike experts.

RB

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Old 05-16-2013, 08:57 AM   #221
ebrabaek OP
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Hi Erling, I've been studying the Secondary Air function, Autotune algorithms and the interaction of Autotune and any map you have installed. For now, I think the best thing is to learn to save the maps you have for safekeeping and wait a little longer for me to get some feedback on how you may want to proceed.
I think I will lower the 20% in the base map to 5, and have a look.

The subjects I'm looking at now are:
  • When is the Secondary Air Valve actuated? (It seems this will affect Autotune.)
  • How long is the injection pulse at wide throttle angles? (You can't extend the injection pulse longer than the motor rotation period.)
  • Are the base map and trim map additive? (It seems that they are.)
  • Dynojet says that it takes a while to calculate an Autotune correction for a given cell. How long?

Did your tuner disconnect the Secondary Air Valve at the connector or plug it?
No.... After asking it was determined that the SAS was comparable to the PC-5/AT, and need not be disconnected. That may or may not turn out to be correct. If it should be disconnected, I am game to do so, to see if it makes any difference.

On your PC V settings page, what is the delay time that is set before Autotune can start?
It is set at 30 seconds. Mind you, that is from power on, and after 30 seconds it goes active instantly above 2%. Verified with the green light.

But rather than risk giving you bad advice, I'd like to look at this longer and discuss with some other F bike experts.

RB
I am with you so far Roger. The more I learn about the SAS system, it becomes apparent to me, that although needed in conjunction with the CAT to satisfy the EPA, as my CAT is removed, and thus now not needed, I am leaning towards removing , or plugging it, just as I did on the Charcoal canister early on. I will save the trims, or at the very least save an imige, and reset them.....without re-flashing the pc-5.....chance the base map from 20% to 5, and re asses the situation. I can always revert, as this setup works really fine. I will post up the new trims, as they become available.

Cheers.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:45 AM   #222
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I think there are a couple of things you should consider doing.

Take the time delay out to 3-4 minutes if it will let you so that your bike is fully warm and so that there are no warm-up enrichments being supplied by the BMSK.

Add a 12V bulb across the wires going to the SAS solenoid and ride with it a while and figure out when the SAS circuit is active.

I found a good how-to list for Autotune that I'll add later.
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Old 05-16-2013, 11:24 AM   #223
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I think there are a couple of things you should consider doing.

Take the time delay out to 3-4 minutes if it will let you so that your bike is fully warm and so that there are no warm-up enrichments being supplied by the BMSK.

Add a 12V bulb across the wires going to the SAS solenoid and ride with it a while and figure out when the SAS circuit is active.

I found a good how-to list for Autotune that I'll add later.
RB
I thought about that, but had it set that low to facilitate the hot temps here in the desert.... but as the BMS-K....PV-5, and AT are all wrestling for control, perhaps it is a good idea, at least until I figure out how to sniff the water temp, and input that to the pc-5.
I would do the SAS witha small led....rather than bulb..... Do you know where that critter is located...???
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:31 PM   #224
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Just thinking out loud here, would a GS-911 log the SAS data?

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Old 05-16-2013, 01:03 PM   #225
roger 04 rt
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I thought about that, but had it set that low to facilitate the hot temps here in the desert.... but as the BMS-K....PV-5, and AT are all wrestling for control, perhaps it is a good idea, at least until I figure out how to sniff the water temp, and input that to the pc-5.
I would do the SAS witha small led....rather than bulb..... Do you know where that critter is located...???
No idea about its location. An LED would be good. I'll get back to you with the wire colors.

Follow the tube from the intake air box toward one of the cylinder heads. When you ind the solenoid and if the wire colors match that should confirm.

Pin 1 of the Solenoid has a Blue wire with a Brown trace.
Pin 2 of the Solenoid has a Yellow wire with a Grey trace.


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Just thinking out loud here, would a GS-911 log the SAS data?

Terry
I was wondering that too.

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