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Old 05-14-2013, 07:33 AM   #256
Rodzilla
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But back on Target.

One of the reasons that these replacement routes are happening is because "We" the users are staying involved. I will tell you that when we get that reroute in Captain Jacks, it is unlikely to happen "right now".

Assuming they will have to follow the same process to do a new trail (even if its a reroute). They will likely have to do the "ologist" assessments.

Biologist will have to do threatened plant survey (and usually a certain time of the season). Archeologist will have to make sure there are no arch. sites, Biologist for endangered species etc... All this is done on the ground, on foot.

FS will likely give a "corridor" in which the reroute can be built...and it is likely that the route will be pin flagged then cut in by hand. So it's a time consuming process and hot, sweaty work.

I have no idea how they will do man power. Rampart uses the Mile High Youth Corps paid for out of the grant money from the OHV stickers (you DO have stickers, right?)
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:29 AM   #257
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Why is it that to put in a 12" trail it takes and Army of 'ologists and lots of paperwork, but when the loggers come in to clear cut or thin out and area it gets done in a second. After they are done it looks like a B-52 Arch Light bombing run came through.

I don't get it.
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Old 05-14-2013, 02:09 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Yellow Pig View Post
Why is it that to put in a 12" trail it takes and Army of 'ologists and lots of paperwork, but when the loggers come in to clear cut or thin out and area it gets done in a second. After they are done it looks like a B-52 Arch Light bombing run came through.

I don't get it.

While I agree...like many things in Government you attach the word "Safety" to the proposal (Ala "Forest thinning for fire safety") it tends to grease the wheels
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Old 05-14-2013, 03:24 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Yellow Pig View Post
Why is it that to put in a 12" trail it takes and Army of 'ologists and lots of paperwork, but when the loggers come in to clear cut or thin out and area it gets done in a second. After they are done it looks like a B-52 Arch Light bombing run came through.

I don't get it.
I had to look up arc light bombing. Yep, that about covers it. Put in a single trail and it's 3 years..."thin" and it's 1 season with monster tracks, body size limbs everywhere and it's done. Hmmm.....

You know the story of how rampart was initially cut in as we know it today?? Yeah, not the government.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHHsgV29__0
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Old 05-15-2013, 06:54 AM   #260
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I don't get it.
What I don't get? It takes us (law abiding biker types) 3+ years to put in a single trail while rogue bicyclists in/around Fruita put in 10X that amount, in a year, without approval and the FS comes in and declares them "Ok" I have nothing against responsible trail building but I just don't get why one is OK and the other is not.
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Old 05-15-2013, 07:34 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Merfman View Post
What I don't get? It takes us (law abiding biker types) 3+ years to put in a single trail while rogue bicyclists in/around Fruita put in 10X that amount, in a year, without approval and the FS comes in and declares them "Ok" I have nothing against responsible trail building but I just don't get why one is OK and the other is not.
Same thing is happening all around Salida. Every time a mountain bike goes off trail, the BLM or FS puts it on the map.
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Old 05-15-2013, 09:27 AM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merfman View Post
What I don't get? It takes us (law abiding biker types) 3+ years to put in a single trail while rogue bicyclists in/around Fruita put in 10X that amount, in a year, without approval and the FS comes in and declares them "Ok" I have nothing against responsible trail building but I just don't get why one is OK and the other is not.
Having been involved in cutting the new Spring Creek trail from Gold Camp Rd to Columbine Trail, I can assure you it didn't just get illegally ridden and declared a trail. Years of planning, fund raising, and coordination, plus days of back breaking manual labor from people like myself were required.

Is it possible those trails you're talking about also took years to develop, but you didn't know about it.
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Old 05-15-2013, 10:49 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
Having been involved in cutting the new Spring Creek trail from Gold Camp Rd to Columbine Trail, I can assure you it didn't just get illegally ridden and declared a trail. Years of planning, fund raising, and coordination, plus days of back breaking manual labor from people like myself were required.

Is it possible those trails you're talking about also took years to develop, but you didn't know about it.
I suppose it's possible but that wasn't the gist of the article I read about 4 years ago that claimed the trails were put in on the fly and later approved by the FS. I've been involved in building trails, putting on races, etc, you're preaching to the choir to what's involved, I'm aware. Hence my confusion on this particular point.
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Old 05-16-2013, 11:11 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by MeterPig View Post
I had to look up arc light bombing. Yep, that about covers it. Put in a single trail and it's 3 years..."thin" and it's 1 season with monster tracks, body size limbs everywhere and it's done. Hmmm.....

You know the story of how rampart was initially cut in as we know it today?? Yeah, not the government.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHHsgV29__0

Yep, a joke that it takes 3+ years. Meanwhile Mt Herman Rd area I can show you where Mtn Bikers have made trails most are obvious being near the roads. FS does nothing to block them...but they keep trying to close the motorcycle single tracks that from what I been told by older people have been there for 30+ years not harming a thing.

It comes down to out of sight out of mind, also if your silent like a bicycle, hike or horseback ride you are OKAY, damaging terrain is OKAY as the USFS sees it by those other groups. Again no one hears you so its not bad or wrong to do.

I'm 100% against them worrying about some "illegal" single track so much that they go into an area and destroy it. Like they did in the 717 area to some of the old Enduro tracks to make them harder to find. The method they use is a lot worst then a handful of people using these "illegal" tracks.

Illegal is a vague word when it comes to a lot of these single tracks. Illegal to who, the guy that for 50+ years has been riding them when no one cared and the USFS knew they were there!!! How is it illegal?

Plenty of hiking social trails, but that is okay as its a silent activity.

I guess we all become outlaws in 30 years
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:29 PM   #265
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Yep, a joke that it takes 3+ years. Meanwhile Mt Herman Rd area I can show you where Mtn Bikers have made trails most are obvious being near the roads. FS does nothing to block them...but they keep trying to close the motorcycle single tracks that from what I been told by older people have been there for 30+ years not harming a thing.

It comes down to out of sight out of mind, also if your silent like a bicycle, hike or horseback ride you are OKAY, damaging terrain is OKAY as the USFS sees it by those other groups. Again no one hears you so its not bad or wrong to do.

I'm 100% against them worrying about some "illegal" single track so much that they go into an area and destroy it. Like they did in the 717 area to some of the old Enduro tracks to make them harder to find. The method they use is a lot worst then a handful of people using these "illegal" tracks.

Illegal is a vague word when it comes to a lot of these single tracks. Illegal to who, the guy that for 50+ years has been riding them when no one cared and the USFS knew they were there!!! How is it illegal?

Plenty of hiking social trails, but that is okay as its a silent activity.

I guess we all become outlaws in 30 years
Towards the end of my recent time on single track bikes, I started looking around and seeing a lot of trails not on "maps" which I imagine is what most old timers around here do anyway. It's getting pointless to clamor for the few single track trails left in the denver metro. Drive farther and ride all the single track you can handle that no map has. It's sad, but true.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:43 PM   #266
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Same thing is happening all around Salida. Every time a mountain bike goes off trail, the BLM or FS puts it on the map.
Now if that were true, there would be a MTB trail in every drainage and have connectors for each.

Oh wait, they do.
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:46 PM   #267
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Now if that were true, there would be a MTB trail in every drainage and have connectors for each.

Oh wait, they do.
Do they have to do ANYTHING to get a mountain bike trail designated as an official trail? It seems they pop up as fast as they can make signs! I'm happy for them; I think it's great that we have so many trails around here, but it takes an act of Congress to get a motorized one, it seems. I've sent a few emails asking about new motorized trails, but I don't even get a reply.
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:55 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Hayduke View Post
Do they have to do ANYTHING to get a mountain bike trail designated as an official trail? It seems they pop up as fast as they can make signs! I'm happy for them; I think it's great that we have so many trails around here, but it takes an act of Congress to get a motorized one, it seems. I've sent a few emails asking about new motorized trails, but I don't even get a reply.

Of course when E-Bikes become affordable then I guess we can all be "motorized" in a way and be legit.

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Old 05-18-2013, 09:27 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Hayduke View Post
Do they have to do ANYTHING to get a mountain bike trail designated as an official trail? It seems they pop up as fast as they can make signs! I'm happy for them; I think it's great that we have so many trails around here, but it takes an act of Congress to get a motorized one, it seems. I've sent a few emails asking about new motorized trails, but I don't even get a reply.
How's that old saying go? Better to ask for forgiveness than permission?

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Old 09-05-2013, 07:06 AM   #270
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There is some great news in the air- the FS has revised the closure order and we now have a loop to ride in our old trail system! I learned about it today, dropped everything and went up to do the loop tonight, it's as awesome as ever.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/alerts/psicc/...ces/?aid=19790

Basically, we can access pipeline from the top/ Frostys (NOT from the bottom/ Jones!), cross over and go up "Runs down fast", and come back out to Frosty's (or the reverse of this loop). When combined with the Rosa saddle, there's at least something worthwhile to ride up there.

This is an example of the FS doing the right thing in the face of opposition- the CBD threatened to sue again if they opened it, and they did anyway. Obviously, we are looking for a better solution in the long run, but in the meantime, it is a step in the right direction, and I for one appreciate that very much.

HERE IS THE IMPORTANT THING: IF THERE ARE MOTO TRACKS IN BEAR CREEK, THERE WILL BE ANOTHER LAW SUIT AND WE COULD LOSE EVERYTHING. We will lose any credibility we have built, and the forest will say they have no choice but to close down the whole system.

There are some trees down across the trail at the junctions blocking the closed part. Please leave them there, obviously people can get around if they decide to but hopefully it will make them think twice, and keep the honest people honest.

Please remember that as tempting as it might be, we are only at an interim step and going beyond the boundaries into Bear Creek will set us up for long term failure. Please tell your friends, your customers, anyone you know who rides, that the Bear Creek Drainage (Captain Jacks, Jones Park, 667) must stay off limits.
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