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Old 05-18-2013, 06:31 AM   #256
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
This is making more sense to me now. Looking at 2% and 5% throttle, 1250 and 1500 RPM, the base map is +20%. The Trim map (which I'm assuming is not additive in the mode you're running but may be additive in the non-real-time PCV mode) has 25, 19 and 0, -13. What is the adjustment Trim limit programmed to on your PCV software?
I think it is 25%, but would have to look to make sure. Will check, after my morning mountain bike ride.

This suggests the following to me: the 25 has hit a limit, the 19 has adjusted toward your 13.5 AFR for that cell. The 0 tells the Autotune not to adjust, don't know why it is there. -13% suggests that either a) this table is additive to the Base map and that it takes 20% minus 13% to hit your 13.5:1 AFR target (very reasonable) or that b) it takes 13% less fuel than stock to hit your 13.5 target (not a reasonable assumption). If I were you I would want to figure out for sure if the tables are additive.

The more I think of it, I think they are aditive. As the PC-5 is operating with the AT, there is a little infighting, this the need to accept trim values, to smooth out the function of the two together. I think I agree with you ,that they are additive.

When does the Off-Idle Hop that you mention occur? I guess it's after deceleration. I should program my LC-1 to 11.8:1 to see what happens on my bike with that annoying post decel, throttle on. This is a nasty side effect of overrun fuel cutoff.
All F8GS has the idle hop, as you correctly mentiones, the fuel, I suspect too, is cut off on closed throttle decell,and as the throttle is opened back up, it burbles, and the bike jumps. It happens at ALL RPM'S...., and does not matter how fast you open the throttle back up. Is hideous, specially if you are doing trail work. That, I believe , is the sole reason the Booster plug was invented.


I'd be interested in comparing the Trim table now to the Trim table when it first came off the Dyno. Can you post a copy of the original?
Sorry, I was an idiot, and accidently erased that trim table..... I will look in the flaptop, But I believe it is gone.


I'm thinking that all the Trim values of 10 were set by your tuner and that you have not got enough time in those cells for Autotune to adjust them.
Correct....


RB
I guess that as my bike cruises at 4500 rpm, at 70 mph, very little fuel is added on the freeway. Other ranges, the onlu answer I can add, is that the fuel additions are inside the BMS-K " margin of operation", as other why, it should not show, and agree with fuel calculations...... I'm stumped, but can only report what I see.
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Old 05-18-2013, 06:59 AM   #257
jscottyk
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Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
I'm also curious how the BMS-K responds when no signal is received from this valve.
Considering this further, keep in mind the F650 twins did not include this setup at all. None of the pieces. The valve cover is even different. Does anyone know if the F650 twin uses a different version of firmware in it's BMS-K?
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:40 AM   #258
terryckdbf
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Interesting. Everything I have read, over 30 different sites, says the secondary air system must be disabled, blocked, etc. I do not know.

http://www.bmwplanetpower.com/viewto...p?f=12&t=16448

http://www.justanswer.com/motorcycle...ed-f800gs.html

Bottom line Erling, you are just gonna have to break down and get GS-911 for us.

Terry

terryckdbf screwed with this post 05-18-2013 at 08:48 AM Reason: clarity
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Old 05-18-2013, 08:45 AM   #259
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Sorry, found the discussion here.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...=637370&page=6

Too many threads regarding the same subject matter.

I am of the opinion the system needs to be physically blocked, but I could be wrong.

Terry
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Old 05-18-2013, 08:49 AM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terryckdbf
When the ECU utilizes the SAS does it ignore the Lambda signal?
Yesss...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk
the F650 twin uses a different version of firmware in it's BMS-K?
Nottt...
I reflashed the BMS-K with a setup developed together with a friend, owner of a 650.
Despite to different camshafts, they are actually the same, thus, because of big O2 exceed red by lambda during SAS operation - I can confirm the readings are validated only during steady states, when SAS is OFF.

Actually I'm fighting with exhaust popping - higher compared to friend's bike.
Reasons could be two:
1. I've Akra installed, while the friend's OEM muffler is hiding more this phenomena
2. 650 have no SAS system, that's why I'm going to try to exclude the system: I firmly believe the popping is due mainly to afterburning of fuel surplus with secondary air.

I've already wired a SAS monitor (just for curiosity, as Roger just said) but it's raining, now...
So far the only thing I can say is that (MY 2008) ECU are not generating any error message with its connector out (and wheels not spinning: nobody knows German fantasy...).

BTW: if you want to lock the cutoff, it's enough to skip the clutch lever microswitch.
Obviously there's an issue with side stand & motor starting in-gear, but you can experiment a trick to eliminate a minor idle-hop cause...
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:19 AM   #261
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terryckdbf View Post
Interesting. Everything I have read, over 30 different sites, says the secondary air system must be disabled, blocked, etc. I do not know.

http://www.bmwplanetpower.com/viewto...p?f=12&t=16448

http://www.justanswer.com/motorcycle...ed-f800gs.html

Bottom line Erling, you are just gonna have to break down and get GS-911 for us.

Terry
I am admitting defeat Terry. I am sorry I have been such a stubborn individual, and to all that have rolled their eyelids backwards, please accept my apologies. The SAS is in fact alive and well, on the 8GS, of that I am convinced.. That out of the way, I will now focus on how to disable it, in a good workable fashion. After reading all the info, I too believe that it will cause a false reading of the Lambda. The question is though, how much, and how bad. I think we can all agree that for air, or should I say O2 to work enhancing the burned mixture, thus enhancing power, and efficiency of the motor, it has to be combusted. There were a few things in Joel's post that I disagreed with, and without starting a fight, this issue was one of them. Afterburners belong on a jet engine ( of which subject I know quite a bit of) not on bikes. So in order for that extra shot of air to help in the power equation, it simply has to be combusted. It is in fact not, so it is not, when active, confusing the fueling, as it is now a fourth power in the matter. ( KMS-K.....PC-5......AT..... and now the SAS) I believe that as long as the algorithm in the software is in control, you can mesh those pieces ( BMS-K, and SAS) but when you then inject third party boxes, like the DJ PC-5/AT, then you are going to be off. I am quite stumped that DJ has no inclusion on this matter, as it clearly is affected, and they pride them self on being the power king of boxes. So with that out of the way, let's focus on what is happening. Assuming that those two holes are in fact direct paths to the exhaust side on the chamber..... I offer the following assessment. When the SAS system is active, ambient air is sucked into the exhaust system, somewhere just prior to the headers. That is now causing the O2 sensor to read falsely, if we regard to that as " combusted" mix. The O2 sensor in reality simply reads...well..... ehhhh.... O2. no matter where it comes from. But the problem arises when in fact, not all that air ( mix) is combusted. Lets take my case for example. An AFR to be maintained of 13.2 at the measuring point say 3-4 feet aft of the SAS injection.... mathematically the air prior to the SAS would have to be lower AFR, as the SAS injection will raise the AFR. So how much lower..... 13.0.....12.5...... I have no clue. But as non combusted air is worthless in regards to power, or control, I have no use for it, as I have already broken the first part of the EPA chain, bu removing the Charcoal Canister. The aspects to perhaps become aware of is how often, and when the SAS is active. I would like to take a step further, and rather than discover that, simply skip that step, as I have deemed the SAS unnecessary....and perhaps detrimental. So I intend to safe the fuel add tables of the PC-5/AT, zero it out, and plug that line to the SAS. Ride, and discover the change in behavior of the overall handling of the bike, and how the PC-5/AT compensates. Howsthat for a turnaround......
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:21 AM   #262
jscottyk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terryckdbf View Post

Too many threads regarding the same subject matter.

I am of the opinion the system needs to be physically blocked, but I could be wrong.

Terry
It is a bit a tangled mess of threads but we've been keep them separate (but in synch) because, IMO, (a) they are separate topics and (b) the SAS thread was started over 2 years ago and I recently bumped it up for different purposes.
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:22 AM   #263
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaspare View Post
Yesss...


Nottt...
I reflashed the BMS-K with a setup developed together with a friend, owner of a 650.
Despite to different camshafts, they are actually the same, thus, because of big O2 exceed red by lambda during SAS operation - I can confirm the readings are validated only during steady states, when SAS is OFF.

Actually I'm fighting with exhaust popping - higher compared to friend's bike.
Reasons could be two:
1. I've Akra installed, while the friend's OEM muffler is hiding more this phenomena
2. 650 have no SAS system, that's why I'm going to try to exclude the system: I firmly believe the popping is due mainly to afterburning of fuel surplus with secondary air.

I've already wired a SAS monitor (just for curiosity, as Roger just said) but it's raining, now...
So far the only thing I can say is that (MY 2008) ECU are not generating any error message with its connector out (and wheels not spinning: nobody knows German fantasy...).

BTW: if you want to lock the cutoff, it's enough to skip the clutch lever microswitch.
Obviously there's an issue with side stand & motor starting in-gear, but you can experiment a trick to eliminate a minor idle-hop cause...
Great points...... But you know... you cannot let the rain stop you..... I will await your findings as you let'er rip through the rain......WE ARE ALL WAITING......
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:23 AM   #264
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
It is a bit a tangled mess of threads but we've been keep them separate (but in synch) because, IMO, (a) they are separate topics and (b) the SAS thread was started over 2 years ago and I recently bumped it up for different purposes.
Fully agree.....
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:28 AM   #265
jscottyk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaspare View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
...Does anyone know if the F650 twin uses a different version of firmware in it's BMS-K?
Nottt...
I reflashed the BMS-K with a setup developed together with a friend, owner of a 650.
Despite to different camshafts, they are actually the same,
thus, because of big O2 exceed red by lambda during SAS operation - I can confirm the readings are validated only during steady states, when SAS is OFF.

Actually I'm fighting with exhaust popping - higher compared to friend's bike.
Reasons could be two:
1. I've Akra installed, while the friend's OEM muffler is hiding more this phenomena
2. 650 have no SAS system, that's why I'm going to try to exclude the system: I firmly believe the popping is due mainly to afterburning of fuel surplus with secondary air.

I've already wired a SAS monitor (just for curiosity, as Roger just said) but it's raining, now...
So far the only thing I can say is that (MY 2008) ECU are not generating any error message with its connector out (and wheels not spinning: nobody knows German fantasy...).

BTW: if you want to lock the cutoff, it's enough to skip the clutch lever microswitch.
Obviously there's an issue with side stand & motor starting in-gear, but you can experiment a trick to eliminate a minor idle-hop cause...
This is excellent information. Thanks Gaspare!

Erling, I think you can disconnect that solenoid without the BMS-K seeing it as an error.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:26 AM   #266
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I'm desperately trying to keep up.... Haha
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:01 AM   #267
terryckdbf
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Erling

Absolutely no need to apologize, we are working together to find solutions that work for all of us. You are not defeated, the information you have garnered is invaluable, the path was the one we needed to take to get where we are. There is still much to do and understand.

The comment regarding the many threads was in jest, yes they are seperate and should remain so.

Terry
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:27 AM   #268
ebrabaek OP
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Originally Posted by terryckdbf View Post
Erling

Absolutely no need to apologize, we are working together to find solutions that work for all of us. You are not defeated, the information you have garnered is invaluable, the path was the one we needed to take to get where we are. There is still much to do and understand.

The comment regarding the many threads was in jest, yes they are seperate and should remain so.

Terry
Yeppers...... I am looking forward to discover more..... But in 25 minutes the Eurovision International Melody Gran Prix starts...... and My home country is in the final..... Might have to wait a little longer.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:32 AM   #269
itsatdm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaspare View Post
Yesss...


Nottt...
I reflashed the BMS-K with a setup developed together with a friend, owner of a 650.
Despite to different camshafts, they are actually the same, thus, because of big O2 exceed red by lambda during SAS operation - I can confirm the readings are validated only during steady states, when SAS is OFF.

Actually I'm fighting with exhaust popping - higher compared to friend's bike.
Reasons could be two:
1. I've Akra installed, while the friend's OEM muffler is hiding more this phenomena
2. 650 have no SAS system, that's why I'm going to try to exclude the system: I firmly believe the popping is due mainly to afterburning of fuel surplus with secondary air.

I've already wired a SAS monitor (just for curiosity, as Roger just said) but it's raining, now...
So far the only thing I can say is that (MY 2008) ECU are not generating any error message with its connector out (and wheels not spinning: nobody knows German fantasy...).

BTW: if you want to lock the cutoff, it's enough to skip the clutch lever microswitch.
Obviously there's an issue with side stand & motor starting in-gear, but you can experiment a trick to eliminate a minor idle-hop cause...
Are you saying the ignition advance and curve is the same for a 650gs and a F800gs?

I have been under the ASSumption that is not true. One reason is that one bike needs premium and the other runs regular. They both have the same CR and I do understand dynamic vs static compression ratio's.

To add some credence to that, several months ago a poster added the F800cams to his F650. Initially he reported it started fine and further testing was required. His last post was the bike needs the F800gs ECU without further explanation or posts.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:50 AM   #270
ebrabaek OP
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Are you saying the ignition advance and curve is the same for a 650gs and a F800gs?

I have been under the ASSumption that is not true. One reason is that one bike needs premium and the other runs regular. They both have the same CR and I do understand dynamic vs static compression ratio's.

To add some credence to that, several months ago a poster added the F800cams to his F650. Initially he reported it started fine and further testing was required. His last post was the bike needs the F800gs ECU without further explanation or posts.
I will tend to second your motion..... As the 8GS does not have a knock sensor, and the 650 does..... different octane req. I would like to think that the ignition map are different between the two.
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