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Old 05-17-2013, 06:31 PM   #17041
Jayrod1318
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I sure hope I don't have a bad one!
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:12 AM   #17042
crypto666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RideFreak View Post
The problem with the XRs bottom end isn't the rod, Honda had a run of poorly built cranks that caused a failure of the Big end thrust washers. Plenty of SM guys run them much harder than we do. Once the washers start going bad it's a very short time before the bottom end follows. Results are the same though, once it happens the bottom end is toast.
Remember the years?

Mine was failing at the small end, as have a number I have seen on here and elswhere.
Most likely a product of inexperience and lugging the motor too much, and opposite of what the sumo guys are doing to the engine.

So I guess it is prone to failure at high and low speeds, atleast on certain years?
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:50 AM   #17043
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crypto666 View Post
Remember the years?

Mine was failing at the small end, as have a number I have seen on here and elswhere.
Most likely a product of inexperience and lugging the motor too much, and opposite of what the sumo guys are doing to the engine.

So I guess it is prone to failure at high and low speeds, atleast on certain years?
It seems to be the earlier ones from what I can tell, but there's been a couple cases of it occurring on some newer ones too, even early enough to have a few fixed by the dlr but no recall. I heard it's a tolerance issue when the crank is pressed together at the factory. Seems that would be easy enough to check prior to assembly. If one is lucky enough, they notice flakes of babbet in the filter which is the thrust washer material. It doesn't take long for them to deteriorate once it starts, then the oil pressure drops. Sometimes this is followed by a big vent hole in the case if being run hard. I wouldn't call it a problem though, there was allot of XRRs sold and by far it's a very reliable motor. Luggin 'em isn't good but lets face it, you can't ride it fast all the time (at least I can't) and as far as I know, the problem isn't related to a type of riding. I think the lugging is hardest on the cam chain.
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Old 05-18-2013, 08:54 AM   #17044
crypto666
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Originally Posted by RideFreak View Post
It seems to be the earlier ones from what I can tell, but there's been a couple cases of it occurring on some newer ones too, even early enough to have a few fixed by the dlr but no recall. I heard it's a tolerance issue when the crank is pressed together at the factory. Seems that would be easy enough to check prior to assembly. If one is lucky enough, they notice flakes of babbet in the filter which is the thrust washer material. It doesn't take long for them to deteriorate once it starts, then the oil pressure drops. Sometimes this is followed by a big vent hole in the case if being run hard. I wouldn't call it a problem though, there was allot of XRRs sold and by far it's a very reliable motor. Luggin 'em isn't good but lets face it, you can't ride it fast all the time (at least I can't) and as far as I know, the problem isn't related to a type of riding. I think the lugging is hardest on the cam chain.

God damn, that makes me worried. I don't remember checking the side gap on my rod after getting it pressed together. I just remember the shop telling me the number and it being in between the specs, so I took their word for it, and I am pretty sure its good.

The reason I blame lugging on small end failures, and I am sure its bad for the cam chain as well, is because of oil jet that lubes the small end. I assume that at low speeds it has a hard time squirting oil all the way up to the wrist pin. I have no proof, but it was the only thing I could come up with for the failure, besides that it uses a bronze bushing instead of rollers. My motor was not even close to wore out in any other area, just the small end and a hole in the case.
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:31 AM   #17045
Cpt. Ron
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Engine Lugging/Engine Damage

Lugging is a relative term, obviously. It's different for different engine configurations. Generally it's running an engine at low rpms while under a load. To go a given speed, a certain amount of energy-per-time (work) needs to put through the motor through the transmission to the ground. When 'lugging", you're causing that amount of work to be done on few cycles (rotations) of the piston/crankshaft assembly. Think of riding a bicycle. It's easier to pull shorter gears (higher rpms) than taller ones. With tall gears, you have to really push on the pedals to go slow. Now think of your piston and crank assembly doing the same thing while you're lugging your motor. All that pressure on the piston crown, piston pin and big end on the connecting rod is just like your quads trying to push the pedal down. The oil film can only handle so much pressure before collapsing and causing metal-to-metal contact. Plus, at lower rpms the oil film will have more time to collapse than at higher rpms.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:04 AM   #17046
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And I'm the guy with a low mileage 2001 that has high Iron, copper and silver content in the oil.

I'm remembering my first oil change where I cleaned the strainer in the frame. It had a bunch of of metal bits, did'nt pay much attention to it. I'm almost certain it was the first time it had ever been cleaned so i just figured it was production shavings left behind. (the frame oil reservoir is after the oil filter correct?) No way bottom end bits would end up in the frame unless there was a filter failure.

Next change I'm going to cut apart my filter to inspect and clean the strainer in the frame......
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:52 PM   #17047
RideFreak
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Like I said, it's not what I'd call a common failure, I'm not trying to scare anyone, the XR motor is uber relaible compared to many others.

Ron, that's a great explanation of lubrication's characteristics and I think you're right on the money with it's effects. It sounds like a plausable cause for crypto's prob. The plain brg in the small end is a proven design but there is allot of mass in the crank/rod/piston assy on a 650. Lugging definately taxes the brg areas.
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Old 05-19-2013, 05:50 AM   #17048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrod1318 View Post
(the frame oil reservoir is after the oil filter correct?) No way bottom end bits would end up in the frame unless there was a filter failure.
Oh yes there is. The scavenging pump will pump unfiltered oil in the frame, the only protection - sortof - is the secondary screen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrod1318 View Post
Next change I'm going to cut apart my filter to inspect and clean the strainer in the frame......
The frame's strainer you should inspect on every oilchange, quick & easy. But I gather you've never had a look at the secondary one, in the motor behind the clutch? If not doing that is a good idea
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Old 05-19-2013, 06:06 AM   #17049
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Hey guys.
Got a question, anyone have or is using a rekluse EXP 2.0 auto clutch on they're xrr?

I had it adjusted per instructions, and even adjusted it at the very end scale of being in auto mode(clutch almost grabbing to a point you have to almost apply the brakes so it doesnt creep forward, but im not liking it.

Its great for uphills/tight single tracks but thats about it, because to me the clutch slips too much for anything else.
In the dirt, you almost think its just the tyres spinning from having no grip, but i then went on pavement to double check and sure enough it slips a fair bit.
Here is how i would explain it.
Say im cruising in 3rd gear ( but this happens in any gear) and i go to give it (wide open throttle), immidiatly the revs sky rocket high but bike goes nowhere(slipping), this takes a good 2seconds at least and then slowly you can feel the clucth catching up(starting to grip), but that catching up also takes a good few seconds.

I cant do wheelies anymore with just powering it like i use to, doing jumps is harder, taking off quickly is bad and the worst part is, i also use it as a motard( i have both setups that i change to) and use it at race tracks and it sucks exiting corners or overtaking someone etc...

Ive double checked my adjsutment and cant see anything wrong, ive put the strongest springs that come with it and i dont have this issue when i remove the Rekluse EXP out of the system.

Is this normal for a rekluse auto clutch? or can it simply not handle the torque of the xrr?
Its modded with full exhaust, tm40 carby, stage 1 cam, air box modded.

cheers
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Old 05-19-2013, 06:09 AM   #17050
ZXRaziel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mazman808 View Post
Hey guys.
Got a question, anyone have or is using a rekluse EXP 2.0 auto clutch on they're xrr?

I had it adjusted per instructions, and even adjusted it at the very end scale of being in auto mode(clutch almost grabbing to a point you have to almost apply the brakes so it doesnt creep forward, but im not liking it.

Its great for uphills/tight single tracks but thats about it, because to me the clutch slips too much for anything else.
In the dirt, you almost think its just the tyres spinning from having no grip, but i then went on pavement to double check and sure enough it slips a fair bit.
Here is how i would explain it.
Say im cruising in 3rd gear ( but this happens in any gear) and i go to give it (wide open throttle), immidiatly the revs sky rocket high but bike goes nowhere(slipping), this takes a good 2seconds at least and then slowly you can feel the clucth catching up(starting to grip), but that catching up also takes a good few seconds.

I cant do wheelies anymore with just powering it like i use to, doing jumps is harder, taking off quickly is bad and the worst part is, i also use it as a motard( i have both setups that i change to) and use it at race tracks and it sucks exiting corners or overtaking someone etc...

Ive double checked my adjsutment and cant see anything wrong, ive put the strongest springs that come with it and i dont have this issue when i remove the Rekluse EXP out of the system.

Is this normal for a rekluse auto clutch? or can it simply not handle the torque of the xrr?
Its modded with full exhaust, tm40 carby, stage 1 cam, air box modded.

cheers
That sounds like something is wrong , make sure that you have assembed it correctly .
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:45 AM   #17051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrod1318 View Post
And I'm the guy with a low mileage 2001 that has high Iron, copper and silver content in the oil.

I'm remembering my first oil change where I cleaned the strainer in the frame. It had a bunch of of metal bits, did'nt pay much attention to it. I'm almost certain it was the first time it had ever been cleaned so i just figured it was production shavings left behind. (the frame oil reservoir is after the oil filter correct?) No way bottom end bits would end up in the frame unless there was a filter failure.

Next change I'm going to cut apart my filter to inspect and clean the strainer in the frame......
You may have a problem there?
If residual machine bits from initial assembly they would most likely be of aluminum.
you would be looking for gold color in in your screens or in the bottom of the case.



From the top on the picture above

Scavenge (square filter guessing 120 micron) filter this the first line of defense it filters before the scavenge pump this is where to look if the debris is fairly large and if there was debris in filter #2 (like you)

the center down tube filter (#2) is additional scavenge filtering(suspect 80 micron)
and in addition it prevents crap that can enter the fill point.
your case may be just that? (poor dip stick hygiene?)

The third filter is after the main oil pump and in the picture is a 35 micron filter it it what supply's the engine it catches all the small stuff (usually the first filter to check)
Hope that helps, I noted on your oil analyses that it had elevated copper?
you are suspect
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Old 05-19-2013, 05:20 PM   #17052
slickwill
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I should have clarified when I agreed with "rod issues" that it is the big end bearing in the rod that I and my friend have both had issues with. As noted we are both "sumo guys." My bike started its life as Johnny Campbell's BITD bike but it has made an excellent supermoto. I lost the big end bearing at a track day at Grattan. My friend lost his big end bearing on the same track two years earlier. Both of us rebuilt with full Falicon Supercrank mod with Falicon rod. He's got hundreds of track day miles and thousands of street miles since then. I've got 20ish supermoto sprint races and 1500ish street miles since then on a pretty hot engine build. I don't know how much use the engine had before I bought it but I put 5k+ street miles on it and did a few track days before it popped. Hopefully I get a bit more life out of it this time.
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:35 PM   #17053
jwalters
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Well, it's been a few weeks since I got my carb sorted and I had a chance to put some miles on the bike and make a few more changes. Burpsa, you sir, were correct. Dropping the needle cured most of the studdering, but I ended up going from a 175 to a 165. It's still a bit on the the rich side, but that's just fine! Running great now. Thanks again. -JW

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuRPsa View Post
Jesse,
if an engine 'spudders' then it is running really rich, and the solution is to reduce a jet, not merely dropping the needle. It may feel fine now but I bet it still runs rich, your exhaust telling telltales.
I'd put in (with clean filter, set valves etc) the 68S, set the needle to 'mid' and drop the main size-by-size until you feel it is too small - then use the averaged size with your current one which should put you in the ballpark. Only then finetune the needle.
Of course this is a rough way of jetting, the best is to hook up an analyser on a dyno, however it will work.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:08 PM   #17054
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Laugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyGuy View Post
You may have a problem there?
If residual machine bits from initial assembly they would most likely be of aluminum.
you would be looking for gold color in in your screens or in the bottom of the case.



From the top on the picture above

Scavenge (square filter guessing 120 micron) filter this the first line of defense it filters before the scavenge pump this is where to look if the debris is fairly large and if there was debris in filter #2 (like you)

the center down tube filter (#2) is additional scavenge filtering(suspect 80 micron)
and in addition it prevents crap that can enter the fill point.
your case may be just that? (poor dip stick hygiene?)

The third filter is after the main oil pump and in the picture is a 35 micron filter it it what supply's the engine it catches all the small stuff (usually the first filter to check)
Hope that helps, I noted on your oil analyses that it had elevated copper?
you are suspect
The bike is a cream puff I picked up about 2 years ago. Bike was basically brand new. I've only put 3 thousand miles on it. (I wish I could ride it more). It runs fine ect. I did an oil analysis to see to see about drain intervals and it came back with wear metals. Made me remember the first oil Change I gave it when I brought it home and now I'm subsequently paranoid. I've always thought that the engine is loud, a lot of noises come out of these things. I've always thought it had bit of a knock in it. I dunno, I'm going to run it till I get enough miles on it to send another sample in. In the meantime I'm going to check the frame strainer.... Maybe nothing,,,, maybe something I will find out.
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:35 AM   #17055
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:ear

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazman808 View Post
Hey guys.
Got a question, anyone have or is using a rekluse EXP 2.0 auto clutch on they're xrr?

I had it adjusted per instructions, and even adjusted it at the very end scale of being in auto mode(clutch almost grabbing to a point you have to almost apply the brakes so it doesnt creep forward, but im not liking it.

Its great for uphills/tight single tracks but thats about it, because to me the clutch slips too much for anything else.
In the dirt, you almost think its just the tyres spinning from having no grip, but i then went on pavement to double check and sure enough it slips a fair bit.
Here is how i would explain it.
Say im cruising in 3rd gear ( but this happens in any gear) and i go to give it (wide open throttle), immidiatly the revs sky rocket high but bike goes nowhere(slipping), this takes a good 2seconds at least and then slowly you can feel the clucth catching up(starting to grip), but that catching up also takes a good few seconds.

I cant do wheelies anymore with just powering it like i use to, doing jumps is harder, taking off quickly is bad and the worst part is, i also use it as a motard( i have both setups that i change to) and use it at race tracks and it sucks exiting corners or overtaking someone etc...

Ive double checked my adjsutment and cant see anything wrong, ive put the strongest springs that come with it and i dont have this issue when i remove the Rekluse EXP out of the system.

Is this normal for a rekluse auto clutch? or can it simply not handle the torque of the xrr?
Its modded with full exhaust, tm40 carby, stage 1 cam, air box modded.

cheers
great questions. I am about to pull the trigger on one for my pig, i am curious to know if others have the same issues. Have you checked the specs on your clutch plates to see if they have excessive wear and are out of spec? that may cause excessive slippage of the clutch? prob not since yo dont have any issues with it removed.
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