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Old 05-25-2013, 04:04 AM   #3601
Cortez
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Old 05-25-2013, 04:31 AM   #3602
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There are certainly other motorcycles that interest me, but, all in, I still choose my Bonneville.



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Old 05-25-2013, 10:27 AM   #3603
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The whole mileage thing is only part of the picture. If you are really concerned about economy, a motorcycle may not be the best choice when ya add in the added cost and frequency of tires, oil changes and other maintenance items. I had a 100 mile each way daily comute for a while and it was cheaper (but slower and less fun) to use my little 40mpg econo box than my near 50mph harley or especially my 35mpg ninja. Of course it may be different if ya can stand a Honda 50?
That said, I am intrigued with the electric bikes from Zero and Brammo.
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Old 05-25-2013, 10:51 AM   #3604
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Originally Posted by 0ldhippie View Post
The whole mileage thing is only part of the picture. If you are really concerned about economy, a motorcycle may not be the best choice when ya add in the added cost and frequency of tires, oil changes and other maintenance items. I had a 100 mile each way daily comute for a while and it was cheaper (but slower and less fun) to use my little 40mpg econo box than my near 50mph harley or especially my 35mpg ninja. Of course it may be different if ya can stand a Honda 50?
That said, I am intrigued with the electric bikes from Zero and Brammo.
Well, I've thought more about this and came to the conclusion that maybe it's just a completely different way of viewing motorcycles and what you want/need/use them for. I have a company vehicle along with a gas card. I've never used a motorcycle for commuting purposes, and wouldn't in the Atlanta interstate traffic even if I did need a personal vehicle for the purpose. I don't enjoy riding on the interstate in the least, and absolutely HATE the heavy traffic on my commute route since it's mostly people too busy texting, talking on their phones, or putting on makeup to bother with driving.

Motorcycles have for over 30 years simply been a hobby, a toy, the thing that I do for fun and pleasure. I've just never seen them as a practical "vehicle" or means of transport, outside of just for the shear joy of it. Since they are a "passion" item for me, the relatively small amount of money difference that fuel economy represents just isn't important to me in the least. I buy motorcycles based entirely on the things they DO for me in terms of the sensations and pleasurable experiences they provide. Unfortunately, these days, with my schedule and other commitments I fall well below that 10,000 mile per year average I used in my earlier example, so the paltry amount of money potentially saved really has no meaning to me whatsoever. I mean hell, the bag of beef jerky I ate yesterday would probably pay for the difference in fuel between my Sporty and the average touring scooter for a week or two.

Now, if I were using a bike for daily transportation, and we were talking about a SIGNIFICANT money difference... like say maybe even $75 to $100 a week, then yeah, maybe so. But, using my example above and for the average commuter, we're really not talking about a lot of money saved between what, for me, would be a fun bike and a boring appliance.

That's just the way I look at it personally, but I realize that different people have different priorities and "hot buttons".

To each their own....


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Old 05-25-2013, 11:08 AM   #3605
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I think your math might be a little off.

Considering 10,000 mile commuting distances a year.

65 MPG:

10,000 miles / 65 mpg = 154 gallons of gas
154 gallons * 4 dollars a gallon = 616$ a year on gas

35 MPG:

10,000 miles / 35 mpg = 286 gallons of gas
286 gallons * 4 dollars a gallon = 1144$ a year on gas

That's 10$ a week MORE and half a grand a year just on gas. That's not an insignificant sum for many people.

Not to mention that kind of coin can buy some really soul stirring weekend getaways spent on your motorcycle throughout the year instead of buying some boring gas.

There are some out there who see any motorcycle as a ticket to fun and excitement. Personally I don't see how anyone can consider any motorcycle to simply be an "appliance". That to me speaks to an obsession with the machine rather then the act of riding. Riding is the fun part, and I can have fun on anything with two wheels.

If I can save 500 a year doing what I love - sounds like a good deal to me.
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Old 05-25-2013, 11:41 AM   #3606
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That's exactly my issue with the street triple. A SV gets your 90% of the way there for 10% of the cost, it's a no brainer. SV oozes character (especially with an after market exhaust) as well so the Triumph doesn't even have that advantage.
Owing an SV is a major pain in the ass if you have a wandering eye. Of all the bikes I've owned, it's the one I'm having the hardest time justifying trying to sell off. I have the suspension fully sorted front and rear, upgraded calipers (off a RC51), and a master cylinder (off an '09 R1) so now it stops and handles as well as anything I've ridden. All for a total investment of around 4 grand at this point not including consumables and basic maintenance. And if I sell it, I'll get what, 3K on a good day?

I've been looking long and hard at Striple R's these past few weeks but can't really convince myself of why the hell I should be jumping ship.
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Old 05-25-2013, 12:21 PM   #3607
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Old 05-25-2013, 01:01 PM   #3608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by single View Post
I think your math might be a little off.

Considering 10,000 mile commuting distances a year.

65 MPG:

10,000 miles / 65 mpg = 154 gallons of gas
154 gallons * 4 dollars a gallon = 616$ a year on gas

35 MPG:

10,000 miles / 35 mpg = 286 gallons of gas
286 gallons * 4 dollars a gallon = 1144$ a year on gas

That's 10$ a week MORE and half a grand a year just on gas. That's not an insignificant sum for many people.

Not to mention that kind of coin can buy some really soul stirring weekend getaways spent on your motorcycle throughout the year instead of buying some boring gas.

There are some out there who see any motorcycle as a ticket to fun and excitement. Personally I don't see how anyone can consider any motorcycle to simply be an "appliance". That to me speaks to an obsession with the machine rather then the act of riding. Riding is the fun part, and I can have fun on anything with two wheels.

If I can save 500 a year doing what I love - sounds like a good deal to me.
Nothing wrong with my math. I used slightly different mpg differences than you and gas is under $3.50 a gallon here currently, so in my example it works out to be less than $10 a week, which to me is insignificant. And that's still using the 10,000 miles a year figure, and like I said I don't even ride that much so the total saved for ME would be even less. And yes, the money saved can be used anyway you see fit. Like on a little more beef jerky...

And for me, a "soul stirring (bike) weekend" requires a "soul stirring" bike. And again for ME, the bikes that typically get 65-70 mpg just don't fit that definition. My Sporty actually does do that and still gets right at 50 mpg. My GS, while bordering on boring, does handle well, has ample power, has tons of storage capacity, and is comfortable for two up travel way up in the hundreds of miles per day. It also gets in the upper 40's in the mpg dept. So why would I want to give up what I find soul stirring for something I find boring or less competent for my wants and needs, just to save a few dollars on the one thing in life that I really don't mind spending my disposable income on?

I mean, does anyone NEED to play golf? If they do, do they really need to spend the money on premium balls and equipment? What about fishermen? Do they really need that huge bass boat with all the fancy equipment, and thousands of dollars in tackle and gear? No. A golfer can use pawn shop clubs and range pick-up balls. A fisherman can use a canoe or an aluminum jon boat and one or two rods. We use our disposable income on things that we enjoy doing, on things that make us smile, on things that are usually pointless in the real world, but are our passion. I don't do those things, but I DO ride motorcycles and I don't see the point in diminishing the total amount of pleasure that I can obtain just to save a few paltry dollars that really doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the greater scheme of my income and expenses. It's a luxury item, not a necessity.

And yes, given no choice of bikes to ride, I'd say that I could find pleasure riding anything as opposed to riding nothing. But, given a choice, that doesn't mean that I can't derive MORE pleasure from riding some as opposed to others. Luckily I have that choice. We all do, and we all have to make those choices based on our own set of priorities.

It's not like I haven't owned and ridden boring bikes. It's just that over the years I've discovered that I enjoy riding bikes that I don't find boring more than I enjoy riding those that I do. Given the exact same road and trip I just find it more satisfying and joyful to ride some bikes as opposed to some others. It's really simple. Not an obsession with the "bike" so much as it is an obsession with the totality of the bike experience. And yes, some bikes are more like appliances, IMO. That term simply means that they are very competent at doing their job, but are lacking in the all important "soul stirring" element for ME, in some way or area or another. Much like my dishwasher. It washes dishes great! But, it doesn't excite me when it does its job.

But once again, I don't expect everyone to understand that any more than I understand how anyone could choose what I would consider a boring bike.

There really are differences in people, ya know? Some people really enjoy food more than others, for a simple example. Some people feel music and some people simply hear it. Human perception is a very interesting subject and the way we vary in the way we internally experience what outwardly appears to be the same stimuli can be quite a surprise for some people. Many people are egocentric enough to actually believe that their way of perceiving and experiencing the world is the ONLY way. I've lived with that my whole life as I tend to be of a more sensual nature. And while I don't expect others to understand it, I wouldn't trade it for the world, because I feel that my life is far richer as a result. That's undoubtedly why I experience some bikes as having "character" or "soul" and others as appliances. Some people share in that interpretation and others don't. It's all about perception. Do you really believe that your view is the only one?

Different strokes for different folks. It REALLY is as simple as that. You have fun with your extra $10 a week your way, and I'll have fun with my extra $10 a week in my way, by riding a bike that I like and not worrying about a few extra gallons of gas. And if I really have to, I'll skip that beef jerky next week.



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Old 05-25-2013, 01:02 PM   #3609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opmike View Post
Owing an SV is a major pain in the ass if you have a wandering eye. Of all the bikes I've owned, it's the one I'm having the hardest time justifying trying to sell off. I have the suspension fully sorted front and rear, upgraded calipers (off a RC51), and a master cylinder (off an '09 R1) so now it stops and handles as well as anything I've ridden. All for a total investment of around 4 grand at this point not including consumables and basic maintenance. And if I sell it, I'll get what, 3K on a good day?

I've been looking long and hard at Striple R's these past few weeks but can't really convince myself of why the hell I should be jumping ship.
Ummm.... If your talk yourself into the Striple, gimme a shout about the SV.
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"some might call it a 'midlife crisis', I prefer to call it a renaissance of thought and action"... "Life is too short to do anything other than that about which you are absolutely passionate."..."Adventure is a frame of mind, set upon by action, not defined by equipment."..."It all boils down to your ability to say "SCREW IT" and really mean it"....Randy
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Old 05-25-2013, 01:04 PM   #3610
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Originally Posted by travelR6 View Post
just looking at it makes me moist


WOW!

Details????
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"some might call it a 'midlife crisis', I prefer to call it a renaissance of thought and action"... "Life is too short to do anything other than that about which you are absolutely passionate."..."Adventure is a frame of mind, set upon by action, not defined by equipment."..."It all boils down to your ability to say "SCREW IT" and really mean it"....Randy
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Old 05-25-2013, 06:18 PM   #3611
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Well, I've thought more about this and came to the conclusion that maybe it's just a completely different way of viewing motorcycles and what you want/need/use them for. I have a company vehicle along with a gas card. I've never used a motorcycle for commuting purposes, and wouldn't in the Atlanta interstate traffic even if I did need a personal vehicle for the purpose. I don't enjoy riding on the interstate in the least, and absolutely HATE the heavy traffic on my commute route since it's mostly people too busy texting, talking on their phones, or putting on makeup to bother with driving.

Motorcycles have for over 30 years simply been a hobby, a toy, the thing that I do for fun and pleasure. I've just never seen them as a practical "vehicle" or means of transport, outside of just for the shear joy of it. Since they are a "passion" item for me, the relatively small amount of money difference that fuel economy represents just isn't important to me in the least. I buy motorcycles based entirely on the things they DO for me in terms of the sensations and pleasurable experiences they provide. Unfortunately, these days, with my schedule and other commitments I fall well below that 10,000 mile per year average I used in my earlier example, so the paltry amount of money potentially saved really has no meaning to me whatsoever. I mean hell, the bag of beef jerky I ate yesterday would probably pay for the difference in fuel between my Sporty and the average touring scooter for a week or two.

Now, if I were using a bike for daily transportation, and we were talking about a SIGNIFICANT money difference... like say maybe even $75 to $100 a week, then yeah, maybe so. But, using my example above and for the average commuter, we're really not talking about a lot of money saved between what, for me, would be a fun bike and a boring appliance.

That's just the way I look at it personally, but I realize that different people have different priorities and "hot buttons".

To each their own....

I am in both parts -- I ride daily and have done for many years, but I also love to ride and travel, and do it all on the bike that stirs my soul -- a Ducati Monster. While commuting isn't a lot of fun, I found it VERY practical. I was in a pretty ideal situation for it -- in SoCal, the weather's always good and the traffic's always bad. I could go without a car at all (and have since 1988) so the bike really did save money. Also, In CA (and in most other countries) you can split lanes, and the time saved doing that can be a huge benefit. I was a consultant there for 11 years, and the time saved in traffic translated directly to more billable hours at clients, so even if the bike didn't save money on running costs, it made me an extra $40K in income over that time.

The Ducati isn't the cheapest choice for running, but it's been pretty reasonable. Counting everything -- purchase, depreciation, upkeep, maintenance, gas, tires, insurance, everything, I was at about 15 cents a mile up to about 180K miles. In the last few years, I have put a fair bit of money into it, because I love the bike, so I'm probably closer to 20 cents a mile now, but that's still not terribly expensive. There are cars you can run for less than that, but not many, and not any you'd want to spend much time in. Any decent car will run you more than that to operate.

PhilB
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1993 Ducati M900 Monster "Patina" (230,000 miles, so far) -- 1995 Ducati M900 (wife's bike) -- 1972 Honda CB450 (daughter's bike) -- 1979 Vespa P200 (daughter's scoot) -- 1967 Alfa Romeo GT Jr. (1300cc) -- 1964 Vespa GS160 (160cc 2-stroke) -- 1962 Maicoletta scooter (275cc 2-stroke) -- 1960 Heinkel Tourist 103A1 scooter "Elroy" (175cc 4-stroke)
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Old 05-25-2013, 06:50 PM   #3612
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I am in both parts -- I ride daily and have done for many years, but I also love to ride and travel, and do it all on the bike that stirs my soul -- a Ducati Monster. While commuting isn't a lot of fun, I found it VERY practical. I was in a pretty ideal situation for it -- in SoCal, the weather's always good and the traffic's always bad. I could go without a car at all (and have since 1988) so the bike really did save money. Also, In CA (and in most other countries) you can split lanes, and the time saved doing that can be a huge benefit. I was a consultant there for 11 years, and the time saved in traffic translated directly to more billable hours at clients, so even if the bike didn't save money on running costs, it made me an extra $40K in income over that time.

The Ducati isn't the cheapest choice for running, but it's been pretty reasonable. Counting everything -- purchase, depreciation, upkeep, maintenance, gas, tires, insurance, everything, I was at about 15 cents a mile up to about 180K miles. In the last few years, I have put a fair bit of money into it, because I love the bike, so I'm probably closer to 20 cents a mile now, but that's still not terribly expensive. There are cars you can run for less than that, but not many, and not any you'd want to spend much time in. Any decent car will run you more than that to operate.

PhilB
The Ducati Monster is one of THOSE bikes that also stir my soul too actually, so I know what you mean by that. My first Duc ('93 900SS) was the bike that actually started all that I've described as far as the soul stirring thing for me. It was the first bike I ever rode that I could say gave me that special feeling. Very few bikes since has done so either actually. I have a thing for Ducs, Guzzis, and more recently tube frame Buells and my HD Sportster. The sounds and feeling of a v-twin just does something for me that no inline 4 has ever done for me. Not a real fan of vertical twins either. And while singles are fine for a dualsport and off road bike, they just don't really do it for me on the street too much either.

Lane splitting isn't allowed here in GA, and even if it was, for the most part it wouldn't help since the average speed on my usual routes is somewhere between 70 and 80 anyway. And generally speaking, even when it's slower it's still moving along pretty good for the most part. Just a dense multi-lane mass of rapidly moving, inattentive people and big trucks. Not a place I care to spend time on a bike. If it was more of a situation of filtering through grid lock traffic then maybe I could see it be beneficial, but for me anyway, the additional risk just wouldn't be worth it in my situation. Besides, it's a moot point anyway since I have a company vehicle and more times than not that is my office, and my "commute" isn't a traditional one where I go to the same office everyday anyway. I probably spend less than 20-30 days a year in my actual office.

On the expense end of things, I don't want to give the idea that I feel the way I do because I have money coming out my ass either, cause I don't. I have bills just like everyone else, and I save money where I can so I can afford the things I want, like bikes that stir my soul. For example, I do all my own service work. Even changing and balancing my own tires. Knock wood, but I haven't paid a dealer to do anything to a bike for me in probably 10 years or so. And when I do mods to my bikes I'm a very frugal shopper, often buying used items off of ebay or forum classifieds or building the parts I want myself. I'm a big advocate of "penny-tech". I am a cheap ass.. Seriously. But there's just some things that I can't see skimping on. And one of those is in bypassing a bike that really lights my fire, and riding something else that bores me, personally, just to save a little gas money.

But you have 180K MILES on a Monster??? Wow! Never heard of a Duc with mileage that high. What year is it? What has been your experience of failures or high wear things outside the normal items?

A Monster is on my very short list of bikes I want next. Please tell me that they don't get better than 50 mpg...
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Old 05-25-2013, 06:58 PM   #3613
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Agreed 100%

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Originally Posted by pjensen641 View Post
I apologize for derailing the thread a bit and some of the arguments it created. The Gynocycle comment actually pertains to the guys that absolutely must get their feet up on the crash bar mounted highway pegs as soon as they pull away from stops because it looks "cool". To me it looks like the chair with stirrups.

Aaanyway....

Here is a decent looking cruiser and has mid mount controls. Dunno why Dyna's seem to get no love, but I'm not a Harley guy. Maybe SOA can help change the "cool" bikes to mid controls rather than forward! Too bad they killed the XR1200R. Now that was a good looking Harley!

I feel way better on mid-controls, that's what I like about the XL1200R too! Bravo. I thought I was the only one thinking like this.
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Old 05-25-2013, 07:02 PM   #3614
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I feel way better on mid-controls, that's what I like about the XL1200R too! Bravo. I thought I was the only one thinking like this.
Not at ALL. If you read back through this thread you'll see this subject discussed quite a bit. I personally couldn't stand the feeling of my bike when it had the stock forwards on it. Much prefer it now that I switched it to mids.
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Old 05-25-2013, 08:01 PM   #3615
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... But you have 180K MILES on a Monster??? Wow! Never heard of a Duc with mileage that high. What year is it? What has been your experience of failures or high wear things outside the normal items?

A Monster is on my very short list of bikes I want next. Please tell me that they don't get better than 50 mpg...
Actually, I have 207K on it so far. It's a '93, first year of production, bought new.

180K was how far it got without needing much of anything ever. Up to that point, aside from normal wear items, all I had done was piston rings at 122K, new brake discs at 125K, and a clutch basket at 140K. And that 15 cents a mile cost did include that I do have almost everything done at the dealer; I can do my own wrenching, but I'd rather not if I can afford to have someone else do it. I could have run it a fair bit cheaper than that if I did my own work, looked for used parts, etc.

From strictly a financial standpoint, I should have gotten a new bike about then, but I really like that bike and it fits me right, so I decided to go ahead and put in the money to make it last. Since 180K, I've replaced the carburetors, rear shock, done some electrical work, wheel bearings, master and slave cylinders, a few oil seals and gaskets, rebuilt the forks, stuff like that. I also got some CycleCat rearsets and Staintune pipes, neither of which were cheap. I'm due for brake discs again.

No deep engine work yet; the bottom end and transmission haven't seen daylight since it was built. I'm thinking of getting it rebuilt at 250K just for good measure; my goal is to see 500K on it eventually.

It gets 45 to 50 mpg, depending on how I ride it.

I know of several Ducs over 100K, mostly early '90's Monsters and 900SS's. Mine is one of only two I know of that is over 200K. The other is Gary Eagan's ST4 that he set a bunch of endurance riding records on in the early 2000's. He put about 225K on it before switching to another bike; that bike is at the Barber museum now and not accumulating any more miles.

PhilB
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1993 Ducati M900 Monster "Patina" (230,000 miles, so far) -- 1995 Ducati M900 (wife's bike) -- 1972 Honda CB450 (daughter's bike) -- 1979 Vespa P200 (daughter's scoot) -- 1967 Alfa Romeo GT Jr. (1300cc) -- 1964 Vespa GS160 (160cc 2-stroke) -- 1962 Maicoletta scooter (275cc 2-stroke) -- 1960 Heinkel Tourist 103A1 scooter "Elroy" (175cc 4-stroke)
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