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Old 05-27-2013, 12:16 AM   #16
hoss18 OP
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Thanks guys - I love this forum! I have read the hall of wisdom article and although it applies to R1100/1150 I thought it would have be similar for the R100. It makes sense in a crazy sort of way but I wasnt sure that the specs mentioned in the article were the same for the R100 (it looks like its not... but I am starting to think that there is a lot of tolerance to these specs).

Unfortunately wheel smiths are shy creatures that either hide very well or are extinct in our neck of the woods so you learn or dont ride.

I am starting with brand new spokes etc therefore some of the above article doesnt apply but the wheel was fairly true when I started and didnt have any 'dead' spokes and I assume that the rim is fairly true. I started out by counting turns on the nipples and the rim comes out fairly true radially (about 0.6mm without to much effort) but laterially I get deviations starting at about 3mm which I can get down to roughly 1mm by tightening the opposite spokes (at 180deg) but under 1mm it all goes pear shaped. (Get rid of one only to have a bigger one pop up somewhere else )

Im starting to think that this means I have overtensioned a spoke but my torque wrench doesnt go that low (below 5NM). I note that all of the advice indicates I should have one - so before I go any further I have organised one.

Wirespokes - I take it you mean do 12,3,6,9 on one side then do the same the other side then come back and do 1,4,7,10 etc etc...is that right.

Again thanks for the help
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Old 05-27-2013, 08:28 AM   #17
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I did spend a day or so trying. New spokes also and same problem with the pear shaping.The "instructions" well....15 pages of not much really but that's all that is out there.I had one rebuilt by a local "wheel guru" way back then and he couldn't get it right. Got a new wheel after someone conveniently backed into my bike."That" because the insurance adjuster was persuaded they could be rebuilt took shaking at BMW Canada at the time and the dealer who told the adjuster they could be rebuilt got slapped over that one....a little.

If I recall someone on here did one and built a jig first to hold the rim and hub straight in relation to each other.An engineer you know....! From what I recall from way back that's how they are done at the factory. Also asked an old German trained motorcycle mechanic and he concured. Never really had to ask....he sure recognized that wheel when he saw it at my friend's shop and volunteered the info.

My friend just spent 3 days trueing a 67 Triumph wheel. 3 different spoke lenghts/angles and an offset.Of all the regular wheels they apparently are the most difficult to work on. I jokingly asked if he was ready then to work on my wheel. You can guess the answer....
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Old 05-27-2013, 03:42 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H96669 View Post
My friend just spent 3 days trueing a 67 Triumph wheel. 3 different spoke lenghts/angles and an offset.Of all the regular wheels they apparently are the most difficult to work on. I jokingly asked if he was ready then to work on my wheel. You can guess the answer....
I built a set of wheels for my Triumph several years ago - never done it before. I got to say I was having a hell of a time at first because nothing was going right. Then I cracked a bottle of good French wine and then things started to come together. That was a good bottle of wine and those wheels sure did turn out nice.
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Old 05-27-2013, 06:10 PM   #19
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That's what I heard too - that the rim and hub are held in a jig at the factory and then spoked up. So that's what I did with mine, except sans jig.

When I build regular (non X lace) wheels I'll tighten all of the spokes a little at a time, tighten one, then the next in line, and the next...

But my idea in tightening them as I did was attempting to keep the rim exactly aligned to the hub. So at 12 I tightened one from each side (left and right), went to the opposite side of the rim (at 6) and did those. Went back to 3, then 9. The idea was to balance the forces keeping everything aligned.

Woody, in Colorado, says that these wheels are so strong that the rim can get bent yet still run true. But once the spokes are loosened, the bend becomes apparent. And then to attempt relacing without straightening the rim will cause it to always have the deflection.
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Old 05-27-2013, 07:27 PM   #20
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Wheel building is an art. And more. There are many things that can be DIY but wheels are not one-- if I ever need my wheels built they're being farmed out to a pro.

Having said that, in the late 70's I bought a Honda 350 Twin for a work-and-school commuter bike. The PO was customizing it and I got it in the format of a proto-chopper with a 21" front wheel (I'm thinking 17" rear). Skinny-ass tire, I caught it between RR tracks and pavement in the warehouse/industrial district near UAB. Nearly flipped. So I got a used 18" rim and a "normal" sized tire. Took one rainy Saturday to break down the silly front wheel and lace up the sensible wheel. Bought a spoke rethreader that actually rolled new threads in the spoke, so I reused the old spokes. Laced it up and trued it (by eye) with no problems on the living room floor of my apartment.

Ah, the things we could do when we were young (pre-30) because we didn't know we couldn't...

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Old 05-28-2013, 11:37 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackd View Post
I built a set of wheels for my Triumph several years ago - never done it before. I got to say I was having a hell of a time at first because nothing was going right. Then I cracked a bottle of good French wine and then things started to come together. That was a good bottle of wine and those wheels sure did turn out nice.
Yeah....I think my friend should have hit the rum in the process, not after.

I was talking to him yesterday if just on ideas to make special tools, shouldn't be too hard to setup a jig. Mind you buying the materials, Aluminium plate is expensive so wouldn't be in the budget.

What's in my budget is a proper stand for my Marc Parnes balancer so I can do wheels & rotors deflection checks and get rid of my juryrigging.That would also make a good trueing jig. Time to offload the motorcycle corpse from my van....scavenge the materials from the shed and head to his welder. Maybe a bottle of rum to entice him toward that GS wheel....

BTW the wheel guru in Victoria, altough highly recommended on all motorcycle wheels just couldn't get the GS wheel right. Yes he got very close and I rode it like that for a couple years but it always felt out of balance. Getting backed into and getting a new wheel, a blessing in disguise that he could easily have broken some of my bones, they are hard to hold when a big van is trying to push you down.
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Old 05-28-2013, 06:44 PM   #22
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Well taking the advice Ive got the wheel to near specs (not quite but close enough for me) I will get it set up and try it. I agree that it appears to be a job for a pro but the couple locals I approached knew the GS wheels and would rather not. You get the feeling from their point of view its not economical (takes more time than they can charge for) I can see that 'Woody's" idea that the only reasonable solution is to re-roll the rim prior to lacing and then lace in a jig. (I dont know how much Woody charges but if that is the way to go it should be way quicker than trying to do it by hand) I checked with local wheel/rim repairers but none of them are interested in doing bike rims and dont have the rollers? (profiles?) to do them anyway. I wonder if Woody is interested in setting up a franchise in Australia?
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:46 PM   #23
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The GS front wheel/rim have no offset. Woody's is the only place I know who can deal with these wheels. I suppose if they can do it, others could, too, but prepare for a lot of time learning.

I agree with SS on the specs; I haven't seen an in-spec wheel from BMW since the early GSes. But if the tire runs out acceptably-and they seem to-that's all that really matters.
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Old 05-29-2013, 01:56 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Harris View Post
Wheel building is an art. And more. There are many things that can be DIY but wheels are not one-- if I ever need my wheels built they're being farmed out to a pro.
--Bill
I disagree. After giving the matter a lot of thought and done a bit of research, I'm about to rebuild the cross spoked wheels on my R100GS-PD. I plan to make a jig by mounting the wheels horizontally on a wide board, clamping the rim to the board around it's circumference and bolting the hub also to the board. When it's all rigidly held in place, I shall chop off all of the spokes, remove the hub for aqua blasting and polish the wheel rim myself. Then replace the rim and hub on the jig, fit stainless steel spokes and tighten up lightly at 12, 6, 9 and 3 o'clock, adding more and more spokes. One they are all in place (lots of diagrams drawn before dismantling) I'll torque the nipples down very lightly, going back over them again and again until the spokes have the right ring to them when struck. If I cannot get the tolerances correct, I shall take them to a wheel builder for final trueing up.

I'll take pics of the jig once I've built it and post it here. What can possibly go wrong? A human built them on a jig in the factory and another human will rebuild them.
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Old 05-29-2013, 04:28 AM   #25
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The timber jig idea surfaced in Radco's book , The Vintage Motorcyclists Workshop, back in 1986, although Frank Farrington, AKA Radco, freely admitted that the original idea came from one of his fellow club members.

The book is now out of copyright and is available on line.
There is a link to it on the Royal Enfield thread on this forum, but a Google would probably find it too.

There was a a guy in Adelaide, Adelaide Wheel and Rim, who could do the cross spoke wheels.
Like Woody he rolled the rim first and assembled them in a " Machine" presumably a proper sort of jig. But he sold his company and retired, and I dont think the new owners will touch them now.

The question that has been asked a couple of times but not answered is, what sort of torque have people been able to apply to the spokes before they start pulling the rim out of true.

With a Radco style jig it is pretty easy to assemble the wheel and get a pound or so tension on the spokes, but as you increase the tension the rim starts to move around, and like R-Dubb, I found there was nothing I could do to pull it back in line, except slacken it all off and start again.

After a fair few tries I finished up with a not very true wheel with not enough tension in the spokes.

I then did what I should have done in the first place and took it to the guy who could do it, and after he pulled it apart, rolled the rim and rebuilt it on his machine the bill was the same as he quoted to do the job starting from a complete, old wheel.
And after adding the cost of the spokes, the cost was in line with Woodys, so I think his costs are reasonable.
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Old 05-29-2013, 06:00 PM   #26
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I have never measured the end results of a pro job so I cant say to what specs they get their wheels to. If Woody is around he might be willing to say what he gets his to but considering he presses his rims (if necessary) before lacing they should be fairly good.
Everything I have researched indicates that the early rims (eg /5 - 0.2-0.5mm) had very tight specs but it appears that the specs on the later xlace rims (eg R11xx) had a greater tolerance (1.3mm). I got my R100 rims down to 0.6mm and called it close enough - at this measurement the rim movement is barely visable to the eye when the wheel is spun and I am assuming that the tyre tolerance is higher than that.
From this experience and with the above advice I am confident that as long as the rim is fairly straight it is possible to relace and true these rims by hand. It is just a slow and patient process (dont be tempted to rush it). As far as torque goes I used the specs from the R11xx advice 3.5-5NM) and found it about right - the spokes had a definite ring to them but still had some adjustment left BUT be advised that this torque is with a lubricated spoke and nipple.

I considered building a jig, and if I was doing more than one I probably would consider it. But a note - you need access to both sides of the hub and rim when relacing - so you cant just bolt the hub and rim to a board as you wont be able to access the nipples on the board side. Also at these rim tolerances wood/ply board would probably flex more than 1mm over the width of the rim (21")
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Old 05-29-2013, 09:28 PM   #27
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Woody has a thread in the vendor forum - why not give him a shout?
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Old 05-30-2013, 12:20 AM   #28
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Radco's jig is just to get the rim concentric on the hub, the offset correct and the spokes wound up not much more than finger tight.

From there you transfer it to the normal wheel balancer / dial gauge rig, but mainly have to concentrate on keeping the rim true as you tighten up the spokes, and for the novice that is a lot easier than trying to do all four things at once.
Particularly if you have a single sided 8" brake, unequal length and angle spokes and a 1" offset, like some BSA front hubs.

My feeling was that I should be aiming for nearer 3 1/2 ft/ lbs than 3.5 nm with all the spokes pretty close to each other, the 30% difference suggested in the 3.5 to 5nm variation just doesn't, err, ring true.
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