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Old 03-07-2012, 04:49 PM   #31
crazybrit OP
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Well not much news to report.

Inmate MY ADV came over to help me as he's replaced his camchains before which is deeper than I've got. His 04 950 is quite vibey. It has 95k miles on it, he told me at around 20k it started to vibrate a lot more. Hmmn.

Today I testrode Brauhausbiers 06 and it was like I recall mine being in the past. His has a slight vibration point at 3000 rpm but it's gone by 3500 and it's smooth sailing all the way upto 7000rpm. When I got back to his house I tried it on the side stand in neutral, observing mirror vibration and I can see his mirrors briefly blur from 3000-3500, then it's smooth so it matches the sense I get from riding his bike.

The reason I rode Brauhausbiers bike today was because I was talking to Beerslayer (I tried his 06S last year as soon as I thought mine was vibey - see post #7) and his bike was ultra smooth) and he told me this weekend that Brauhausbiers bike was similar to his in terms of vibes.

Looking at the repair manual the balancer chain gear is locked to the balancer shaft and the pinion gear is locked to the crank and the two gears mesh, so there appears no way for the balancer to move independent of the crank.

Also I pulled the carbs apart, cleaned them and checked float level. Also removed the valve covers again and verified that the cam timing is correct. Not that I expected an issue there as if I was off a tooth I expect the bike would run like crap.

I pulled in the clutch going steep downhill at 70 on the freeway and there is no vibration from the chassis plus since it happens in neutral on the side stand I think that pretty much nails it as not a rolling chassis issue.

Only other possibility is somehow one of the cylinders is running differently. However, the bike seems (apart from the vibration) to be running really well and making a lot of power.

crazybrit screwed with this post 04-01-2012 at 11:21 AM
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Old 03-08-2012, 06:34 AM   #32
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What a pain in the arse. Just keep the faith, hang in there.

I can't believe your main bearing would be the source of the vibration if you didn't also hear it making significant noise. But here’s holding thumbs.

So, presuming that for the moment the crank is not the source and all the other obvious things have come up nothing, the big things spinning in there are the clutch, the flywheel and the balancers. The first two could be an issue only if you’ve left something in the flywheel or the bearing in the clutch basket is shot or a tang has bust off. Othewise the balancers are your next to last bet.

It is possible to put the engine back together with balancers out of phase and still have the timing correct. – Start with crank at TDC then forget the dots meant to line up the balancer gear with the timing ring, then, install the cams at TDC. It would be relatively simple to check to see if you did this by just pulling the clutch cover off to see if you’ve got this right.



If this is correct, then I’d go have a look behind that nut to see if the woodruff keys haven’t been sheared (seriously doubt it). The left hand balancer is pressed onto the splined balancer shaft so I doubt it has moved.

Other than that I got zilch.

For me, A too tight chain creates your symptoms sometimes and to a lesser extent balanced carbs but you checked all this.

Keep at it.
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:55 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamanya View Post
It is possible to put the engine back together with balancers out of phase and still have the timing correct. – Start with crank at TDC then forget the dots meant to line up the balancer gear with the timing ring, then, install the cams at TDC. It would be relatively simple to check to see if you did this by just pulling the clutch cover off to see if you’ve got this right.
Thanks for the comment. I agree it's possible to do this. Problem is that I didn't touch the balancer. I got the bike with 180 miles on it so I'm fairly confident the balancer is in the state that it was when the factory assembled it.


The only things I did inside the motor with this most recent service were:

  • check valves, in spec albeit at the extremities. Anyways, no adjustment made.

  • water pump, i messed up the clutch cover on mine trying to R&R the bearings. I'd prefer not to relive the details I installed a used clutch cover and water pump from a 2004 (same cover part# as my 2006 - 60030001044) which had just had a dealer performed water pump R&R 1k miles earlier. The only possibility here is that the plane bearing (bushing) pressed into the clutch cover which the crank end runs in is out of spec on this 2004 cover. I briefly talked to Pyndon about this and he said there was no way this would cause the vibes

  • loosened and torqued all the clutch pressure bolts as per the TSB http://cpmodem.smugmug.com/gallery/4...697195&k=4F3SX

Quote:
If this is correct, then I’d go have a look behind that nut to see if the woodruff keys haven’t been sheared (seriously doubt it). The left hand balancer is pressed onto the splined balancer shaft so I doubt it has moved.
Yes, this is the only way I can see that the balancer could have slipped. I seriously doubt it also but it's worth checking. Thanks!

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Old 03-08-2012, 09:24 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by crazybrit View Post
The only possibility here is that the plane bearing (bushing) pressed into the clutch cover which the crank end runs in is out of spec on this 2004. Visually it had similar wear to mine. The crank is supported on the right side by another plane bearing in the case and that didn't get changed.
This is what I was referring to above. I think it's pretty unlikely that it is the issue but I could be wrong.





Anyways, it seems the time has come to pop the clutch cover off and take a look around.

Obviously make sure that the balancer is still in spec.

I now have a bore gauge so I can test the above plane bearing from the 04 cover.

I also bought a new clutch cover (upgraded 08 part# 60030001144) so I could install my old 06 waterpump into this and install that to see if it changes things.

I can't think of anything else that I caused.
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Old 04-15-2012, 04:20 AM   #35
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what part of the clutch did you change? a part thats static to the crank? than change back first.

Sounds and looks (the plugs) like a timing issue could well be the case here. either the bobine, spark cap thats really off of a cam chain jumped would be what i'd look at first. doing a 100mph is nothing, does it still make 130? :)

I too dont think this is a motor damage related issue.

You can't really test a coil. just install 2 others from a diffrent bike to test them properly.
with the really black plug on the front, i'd look in to that cyllinder being the culprit.
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:19 AM   #36
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what part of the clutch did you change? a part thats static to the crank? than change back first.
I didn't change any part of the clutch.

Quote:
Sounds and looks (the plugs) like a timing issue could well be the case here. either the bobine, spark cap thats really off of a cam chain jumped
What is "bobine".

I've checked the cam timing, marks are correctly aligned at TDC for each cylinder. Rear cylinder marks and balancer marks are also aligned when the crank locking bolt indicates TDC.

What does "spark cap thats really off of a cam chain jumped" mean? As I said above, the balancer looks good. I'm not sure what else could have "jumped"?

Quote:
You can't really test a coil. just install 2 others from a diffrent bike to test them properly.
with the really black plug on the front, i'd look in to that cyllinder being the culprit.
Agree, cylinder imbalance is a possibility.

I just took the clutch and generator covers off. Couldn't see anything that was an issue. One thing I did notice was that the gap between the pickup magnet and teeth of the pickup ring was 0.4mm with a feeler gauge. Spec is 0.6-1.0mm. Both bolts were tight on the pickup so I don't think it's moved. Before I adjust it I want to bolt it back together and run the peak voltage test in the manual. There is also a test to verify that sufficient voltage is getting to the coils.

Tony
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Old 04-15-2012, 09:48 AM   #37
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Have you check your handlebar and it's mounts? i have seen them vibrating more because of a loose bolt or when the handlebar starts to fracture.
Most of the times you're talking about the vibes you use reference your mirror or your hands, and all of those is in the handlebar.
The 950 is vibbey, they fix that with the new balancer shaft the 990 has, but yours wasn't bad before all this started, so i'm kinda taking the stock vibes out of the equation.
Also, you would want to tackle the crankshaft bearing well, meassure everything really good, because everything started when you changed the cover.
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Old 06-13-2013, 02:51 PM   #38
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Have you check your handlebar and it's mounts? i have seen them vibrating more because of a loose bolt or when the handlebar starts to fracture.
Most of the times you're talking about the vibes you use reference your mirror or your hands, and all of those is in the handlebar.
The 950 is vibbey, they fix that with the new balancer shaft the 990 has, but yours wasn't bad before all this started, so i'm kinda taking the stock vibes out of the equation.
Also, you would want to tackle the crankshaft bearing well, meassure everything really good, because everything started when you changed the cover.
So the bike is now at the dealer (ktmnorthwest). Has been actually for past month but Todd finally got around to looking at it yesterday. He rechecked all the things I already had (motor mounts etc) at direction of KTM N/A head tech. I had asked him to check the handlebars (I hadn't specifically but nothing had changed there -- he said vibes were too bad to be bars). Now he's pulling parts off the motor (clutch and generator side) to check the runout .... I wasn't comfortable doing this plus I wanted the dealer to talk to KTM N/A.

Before I took it in I installed a brand new clutch cover and new water pump. Vibration remained. I checked the diameter of the plane bearing (bushing) that's pressed into the clutch cover with a bore gauge. Identical to the the used cover I'd installed (mentioned above). Plus the used bearing showed no signs of wear. The crank is supported by a roller bearing in the case half so it's only the end of the crank that runs in this bushing. The only option would be that the used cover caused the crank to slip and the new cover can't fix it but I cannot see how this could be, if that happened I'd expect to see wear on the bushing.

We shall see what comes of this. I set him a $400 limit. Hopefully it's not, ok, your at $400 and you have this pile of parts. Add another $200 for me to put them all back on
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Old 08-01-2013, 06:58 AM   #39
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any news yet?
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:16 PM   #40
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Is it possible to use rubber engine mounts . . . Especially on the front?

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Old 08-05-2013, 06:58 PM   #41
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Vibrations that come and go

My '04 950 Adventure has the exact same vibrations as your bike and has had ever since I bought it last year. The thing is that the vibrations on my bike come and go, though. They are mostly there, but once in a while they disappear. When such a magic moment occurs you better be on a really nice piece of road, 'cause you never know how long that joyous moment will last. It could be half an hour or a couple of hours.

My observations of the phenomenon are quite similar to yours. The engine pulls good and runs smooth even in low rpms. It's only the vibrations on rpms from 5k and up that's causing frustrations. Apart from what is said earlier in the thread I could add a few things. I've noticed that the exhaust sound changes slightly when the vibrations disappear. The noise level (yeah, I've got Sebring silencers) is normally really annoying. When you happen to have a blessed day (more like hour) without vibrations the sound level is much lower than "normal". The funny thing is that the engine performance at the same time gets even better.

I have no idea of what is causing the vibrations. The gut feeling I'm having, and have had even before I started reading this thread an hour ago, is that it's not anything mechanical. I have tried a few things:
  1. Dr_Bean fuelpump mod (pump wasn't working ok due to worn out contact)
  2. Removing EPC (SAS already removed)
  3. Running a tank with carburetor cleaner
  4. Checking TPS (within spec's, albeit at the lower limit)
  5. Checking pulse sender (don't remember values, but a bit low in voltage I think)
  6. Replacing battery
  7. Checking coil resistance

Worth to mention is that when I first removed the coils I noticed some sooty dirt/residue on one of the coils. It smelled a bit like burnt electronics, but I didn't reflect on it for too long. Then I believe someone in this thread suggested that the coils could be suspected. As a matter of fact I asked my KTM mechanic about the coils only earlier today when the bike was at the dealer for 30k km service and we spoke about the problem. His response was that he didn't think they were part of the problem. I'm not so sure about that... The intermittent nature of the vibrations makes me believe it has something to do with ignition or the electrical system somehow.

When I bought the bike it was equipped with HID lighting. I know such equipment can destroy a lot of electronics in cars, even properly mounted. I think it can cause transients in the 12V system that in the long run break sensitive components. The most sensitive part in our bikes' electrical system is the ECU.

At last, a question:
Does anyone know how to properly check the ECU for damages?
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:45 PM   #42
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[*]Checking TPS (within spec's, albeit at the lower limit)[*]Checking coil resistance
Does anyone know how to properly check the ECU for damages?
I bought spare coils and a spare black-box/ECU. No difference. I also checked the TPS and it's correctly calibrated.

I can reproduce the vibes on the side-stand (same vibration points as when moving). Reproduces with fuel-pump (Dr Bean) disconnected and the carbs gravity fed [post fuel pump] from an aux-tank.

There is no way to test the ECU other than with a bench tester. The manual mentions one but I don't think there is a KTM part. Maybe Kokusan has one.

For your bike, if it happens when moving, I'd check the tire balance.
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Old 08-06-2013, 05:30 AM   #43
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For your bike, if it happens when moving, I'd check the tire balance.
New chain, new tires, no difference. Depressing the clutch while riding makes the vibrations disappear. In combination with the fact that the engine performance increases and the sound changes when the vibrations are absent, I can not think of anything but the engine as the source.

Have you double checked the pulse sender/pickup on your engine? The service manual states that the distance between the ring and pickup should be 0.6-1.0 mm.

On a 2000 km trip last week I used fuel with both 95 octane and 98 octane. I could never be sure, but my impression was that the vibrations and barking sound from the exhaust under load got worse on the 98 octane. It makes me think that there might be something wrong with the ignition timing. The higher octane fuel should ignite later than the fuel with lower octane under the same conditions, so if ignition timing is too late I think that the symptoms ought to be more noticable. At least I know for sure that there is an opposite ratio between the amount of burbling at deceleration and engine performance. When the engine runs at its best and has no vibrations the backfiring and burbling is at a minimum.

Since there are no ways to check ignition timing on these things, how can we be sure that the ignition is correct? There are no knock sensors, so the control unit only relies on the pulses from the pickup ring, the TPS, the octane selector and the gear sensors. But come on, should the ECU be interested in the gear selection for ignition timing? I thought that it only used it for regulating the EPC. Does anyone know for sure what parameters are used and how many ignition maps the ECU has? How can you know what map it's actually running on?
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Old 11-23-2013, 04:15 PM   #44
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Head2Wind kindly loaned me a set of carbs. I installed them and I don't perceive any change in the vibes.

MortimerSickle (Ken) came over to my place today. Comparing both bikes at 6000 rpm on the side-stand, the vibes on mine are pretty significant compared to his, I think we both agreed on that.

There is a huge difference in the vibration transmitted into the handlebars. I have the BRP triple clamp, his is stock but I've checked the damping rubbers on the BRP and they are perfect and everything is torqued to spec.

My bike isn't insured/titled so Ken didn't want to ride it, so I rode both bikes in my local neighborhood. His is a lot smoother above 5000 but mine is definitely still rideable.

I'll insured/retitle mine in January and we'll both go on a longer comparison ride to see how they compare on the freeway at 75mph .... but I'm committed to just riding it now while keeping me eyes open for a decent price low hours 2006/later replacement motor. Everything that can be checked has been checked.
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Old 11-23-2013, 11:19 PM   #45
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If there is a way to check vibration freequency...

That could compare to engine rpm and decide if it is the crankshaft rpms or the camshaft rpms. I think this would be helpfull...
Just shooting in the dark here.
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