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Old 06-13-2013, 09:53 AM   #16
kaput13
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The good news is that is still a nice looking bike . Should be interesting to see your pics of the damage. If the desire is there, everything can be repaired or replaced.
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:31 AM   #17
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tbg,

You now have a blown engine. It is entirely possible that this can be fixed but we will have to see some pictures of the damage to tell. At first blush I'd say this one is toast. Would be much more expensive to fix instead of finding another engine to put in this bike.

You mention engine block damage and cylinder head damage and a bad bearing. The bearing may have damaged the crank, the cylinder heads are almost always lost if broken pieces are hitting them, and the broken place between the block and the cylinder is not even repairable. Just from your descriptions understand so please post some photos.

We will help you find another engine.
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Old 06-14-2013, 01:40 AM   #18
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Progress!

@Kt-88 - Awesome. Good news for a change!
@Warin - Absolutely. Doing the oil filter change was pretty exhilarating, can't wait for some more basic maintenance.
@kaput - Exactly my hopes!
@disston - I wish I could say you're wrong:

Sans-Clymer, I had unscrewed the very obvious parts connecting the cylinder head to the engine, but missed some crucial bits. With the manual in hand, I began to remove the carb, as per instructions:


It took me longer than I'd like to admit before I unscrewed the gunky-throttle-and-clutch cables:



Like some unholy god, she gazed back:


The valves, pretty damn dirty:


Leading to the bad news. NSFW:


Taken from a low angle, camera tilted counter-clockwise. Damage matches the cylinder head and piston head:


Missing a lung:


In addition to the damage on the top of the cylinder assembly, the piston can be wiggled on all up/down/out/in. Shouldn't that be firmly locked to the crankshaft? Maybe the main bearing went, freeing the piston to tear the cylinder out?

I'm in for the long haul with this bike, so give it to me straight. I appreciate your support!
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:22 AM   #19
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Disston is totally on point here.
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Old 06-14-2013, 05:42 AM   #20
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I don't see any damage to the head. Is there something I'm missing? The fact that the valves and the rest of the inside of the head is coated with oily carbon just means this engine has been running in a completely worn out condition for a long time. Unless there is something there that I haven't noticed the heads are now good project parts. They should be examined further by somebody, possibly the mechanic that will rebuild them.

I don't see any problems with the carburetor. This amount of blow by gases on the carbs is not even really bad. Looks like maybe they were cleaned sometime before you got the bike.

Put these parts on a shelf. Put the valve covers on the heads to help protect them. Be careful if you pack stuff in boxes that you don't break any of the fins on the heads or cylinders. Be careful with the rockers. Keep them on the short shafts because they have needle bearings in the rockers and you don't want to loose any of the small needles.

You can store stuff at this point in it's dirty condition. Stuff will get cleaned later if it is being reused.

I see the one spot on the piston that looks like it hit the cylinder skirt. Is there metal flakes on the cylinder skirt from the damage or is that just dirt? You should not be making stuff dirtier as you take it apart. Keep dirt out of the engine parts, even the parts that are no good. The cylinder is trash and the piston also. But don't throw any of the parts away, not yet. You don't get to throw the broken parts away until the bike is up and running again.

I do not see any damage to the engine block? Please point out anything I am missing and post another picture if you can of damage we are missing.

Your next step is to take the piston off the rod and take the rod off the crankshaft. This operation is explained in the manual. Ask about anything that's unclear. You will need at least the triple square socket for the rod bolts. I don't know if the wrist pins in a 1980 are wires or circlips. If they are wires they come out by prying one end out. If circlips you will need a good set of circlip pliers. Let us know what you have for tools and we'll suggest what will work.

Tools are going to be your new passion. It may seem that you are not getting enough use from some of this stuff but you have to get your own tools and you will use most of it again and again, eventually.

Use this place to buy special tools you need. At this point the fluted socket for the rod bolts is I think all. You may find this socket cheaper at some places like Sears and the Craftsman tool is strong enough but there is a thing about these special tools that you will appreciate more someday. The tools you need for this work are not the cheaper variety. This particular socket does come in a cheap version that breaks. So get the one from Cycle Works

http://www.cycleworks.net/index.php?...products_id=27
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Old 06-14-2013, 07:53 AM   #21
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+ 1 on disston's analysis.

Based on what you show so far your diagnosis "main bearing went freeing the piston to tear the cylinder out" is probably correct but you will not know the full extent of the damage until you free the piston and the rod from the crank and do some other investigating. If the damage is contained to what is shown then you got off easy.

Your bike uses circlips on the pins.
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Old 06-17-2013, 12:36 AM   #22
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I'm getting a chance to take the piston off Wednesday, as I'll be home with the circlip pliers. However, looking ahead to the connecting rods, the Clymer says I'll need some "12-point special male socket?" The only 12-point I can find is a Toyota 1/2in:

I'll try to post decent pictures of the block damage tomorrow.
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Old 06-17-2013, 01:00 AM   #23
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12 point tool for con rod bolts

Hi tbg, here is an example of the special tool, 4 up from the bottom.

http://www.northwoodsairheads.com/Tools.html
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Old 06-17-2013, 02:00 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbg View Post
I'm getting a chance to take the piston off Wednesday, as I'll be home with the circlip pliers. However, looking ahead to the connecting rods, the Clymer says I'll need some "12-point special male socket?" The only 12-point I can find is a Toyota 1/2in:

I'll try to post decent pictures of the block damage tomorrow.
I got a set of 4 at a box auto parts store for like $6. I only needed the one size. They are a solid 1/2" (I think) hex shank about 3" long with the 12 point male tip. I hot glued one into a junky 1/2" x 3/8" drive socket and there is my tool.

Look for a place that has the Lisle selection of special tools. Good quality and not too costly.

Example (but look for a single):

http://www.denlorstools.com/home/dt1..._set_-_4_.html

Do not throw the bolts away, you will need them. But mark them so they cannot be mixed up with new ones. They will never run in the engine again but you use them for your measurements. Put the new ones on the tentative shopping list along with the gaskets.

That list is going to tell you the cost of some things, even if you buy nothing. Like the cost in parts just to R&R top end and rods. If you abandon the motor and get another, you can adjust the price of the one you are buying if you know the cost of, for example, checking the top end and rods.

Plaka screwed with this post 06-17-2013 at 02:07 AM
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Old 06-17-2013, 08:57 AM   #25
disston
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Pay attention. Important stuff was already relayed to you but you missed it because you don't see what is coming up.

#1...Buy only the good tool. It is strong enough for this job. It is called a triple square. A cheaper tool will sometimes break. Get the triple square socket from either Northwoods or Cycle Works. Both addresses are already in this thread. Do not try to remove the rod bolts with a socket that seems to fit "close enough". The proper tool fits. An improper fitted tool may ruin the rod bolt and it will then have to be cut out with a torch which will ruin the crank.

#2...It is a rod big end bearing. Do learn the proper name for stuff because it will save money and time in the future. A main bearing is also on the crankshaft. It is what holds the crank in the engine block. The main bearings are important but they are not the same as the rod bearings. So far you suspect a problem with a rod bearing. The rods also have a small end bearing. It's where the wrist pin or gudgeon pin is.

The rod bearings are easy to replace. They don't even cost a lot of money. But when they go bad there is a chance of problems with the crankshaft. It is the crankshaft that is the most concern at the moment. Get the piston off and the rod off the crank and you will be able to see the crank journal. Try to take a picture of the crank journal.

Do not throw any parts away. You may need these rod bolts for temporary assembly but they will not be used in final assembly. You should mark them somehow, a dab of paint works well but you could also cut a small notch in the heads with a file. Entire engines have been ruined because somebody reused the rod bolts. Don't make this mistake.

I know that there seems to be too much extraneous information sometimes. You will have to figure out what parts are real. You are in the big league with this level of engine repair.
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Old 06-17-2013, 12:06 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by disston View Post
Pay attention. Important stuff was already relayed to you but you missed it because you don't see what is coming up.

#1...Buy only the good tool. It is strong enough for this job. It is called a triple square. A cheaper tool will sometimes break. Get the triple square socket from either Northwoods or Cycle Works. Both addresses are already in this thread. Do not try to remove the rod bolts with a socket that seems to fit "close enough". The proper tool fits. An improper fitted tool may ruin the rod bolt and it will then have to be cut out with a torch which will ruin the crank.

#2...It is a rod big end bearing. Do learn the proper name for stuff because it will save money and time in the future. A main bearing is also on the crankshaft. It is what holds the crank in the engine block. The main bearings are important but they are not the same as the rod bearings. So far you suspect a problem with a rod bearing. The rods also have a small end bearing. It's where the wrist pin or gudgeon pin is.

The rod bearings are easy to replace. They don't even cost a lot of money. But when they go bad there is a chance of problems with the crankshaft. It is the crankshaft that is the most concern at the moment. Get the piston off and the rod off the crank and you will be able to see the crank journal. Try to take a picture of the crank journal.

Do not throw any parts away. You may need these rod bolts for temporary assembly but they will not be used in final assembly. You should mark them somehow, a dab of paint works well but you could also cut a small notch in the heads with a file. Entire engines have been ruined because somebody reused the rod bolts. Don't make this mistake.

I know that there seems to be too much extraneous information sometimes. You will have to figure out what parts are real. You are in the big league with this level of engine repair.
Mine is a Power built. Low end of mid quality...but not harbor Fright low end. I've used for years and years and years...starting to show a bit of wear. A better one wouldn't show any. But at $8 for a set of four I'm money ahead.

http://www.amazon.com/Powerbuilt-648.../dp/B002INV1TQ

The Lisle ones are better and usually available locally:

http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-60750-Po...sim_sbs_auto_2

This one is plenty for the job @$4:

http://www.amazon.com/Tools-2305-10M...quare+bit+10mm

But as soon as you go to a 3/8 drive style you get bend over for another $10:

http://www.amazon.com/Vim-XZN110-Tri...productDetails

Probably longer lasting but if it's just sitting in the tool box unused the money could have been better spent. If you're planning on making a living at it or get off on the pride-of-ownership thing, buy almost all Snap-On.

Supply your own junky 1/2 socket and sticking it in with chewing gum saves quite a bit. I came across a homeless Crescent socket and splurged on the hot glue. I used it without for a long time. If I ever blow up the socket I could care less.


The really junk tools may have a poor fit and that will beat up a fastener, even at the low torques these things see. I use better tools for the things I do a lot, they last. I use the junk for where they go in harms way and get used rarely (behind seat of truck). I also have a bin full of Husky and other lower mid grade sockets, wrenches, extensions, ratchets and whatnot. Score 'em at yard sales for a dollar or so a box full. Handy for dedicating to this or that. Like the 1/2" allen on my dedicated rod bolt tool.

So..um..tell me how this broken rod bolt thing works again? I gather you mean stripping the splines somehow? And then not being able to drill it somehow? You don't have to easy out it--thing only engages the cap. Torch??? You know a guy named Tom Cutter? (as in, real well?)


One important tool for this little job is a small towel. As you slide the cylinder outward you slip the towel in so when the piston/rod assembly drops free it don't ding the spigot hole in the block.

A small deadblow hammer (go real cheap) and a careful touch is nice for freeing stuck cylinders. I have literally dozens of hammers. I actually used the solid lead one (legacy from my old MG) to smack on a wrench with the other day---just to use it. It had been years.

As long as you know you're pulling the rod, leave the piston attached to it and take that apart on the bench.

So not mix anything up in the slightest..not even switching a pushrod end for end. So lots of paper towels to wipe oil, baggies, tape, a sharpie, etc.

Back at the thrift store (and yard sales) I score old bread pans, baking sheets, brownie pans, etc. Keep it under .50 ea. Real nice for segregating gooey parts as you go along. Easy to clean and store when done. I end up with a lot of little projects piled in them.
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:43 PM   #27
tbg OP
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@gegster - Thank you! Took my brain longer than I'd like to admit in figuring out what a "male socket" was.
@Plaka - The list idea is one I've already considered. I'm terrified of what the actual price may be, but I suppose knowing is better than spending without a goal. And thanks for the broke-mechanic tips; I'm making a royal mess of my borrowed-garage, so every little bit counts!
@disston - I appreciate your candidness. Now I know that a fluted socket and a male socket are the same thing! I'll be sure to be as accurate as possible with naming conventions in the future. No need to mess anything up.

Here's a picture of what I believe to be engine block damage:


Unfortunately, Imgur seems to hate my poorly-edited image. I should be able to get the rods and head off on Wednesday. I'll report back then with pictures.
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:58 PM   #28
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This comes up a lot. Posting pictures is a big help but it is often not the solution. You have to tell us what the picture is of and what we are seeing.

It looks like I see a ding on the inside of the engine bore where the cylinder base goes? Will an undamaged cylinder still fit or be made to fit by hand filling the damaged area? If the cylinder is made to fit this way does it look like there would be a weakness?

How about the outside surface. Is the area the base of the cylinder seals against still flat?

After you get the piston off and the rod out it should be possible to see the damage better.

Try to keep work area clean especially a borrowed space. Bring cardboard boxes, beer boxes or oil boxes work well, to put stuff in. Any spilt oil should be cleaned up immediately. Sweep the floor so oily dirt doesn't get ground in concrete. Kitty Litter will absorb oily spills.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:27 AM   #29
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I'm lacking the vocabulary and knowledge to describe this with any precision. I'd like to say a small cut parallel to the rod that has dug material out from the head. Damage that matches the pictures of the top cylinder head/piston head.

Likely, what I'm describing is wholly inaccurate. 1: Yes a ding. 2:Yes, but I believe it may need to be re-bored. 3: No.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:35 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by tbg View Post
@gegster - Thank you! Took my brain longer than I'd like to admit in figuring out what a "male socket" was.
@Plaka - The list idea is one I've already considered. I'm terrified of what the actual price may be, but I suppose knowing is better than spending without a goal. And thanks for the broke-mechanic tips; I'm making a royal mess of my borrowed-garage, so every little bit counts!
@disston - I appreciate your candidness. Now I know that a fluted socket and a male socket are the same thing! I'll be sure to be as accurate as possible with naming conventions in the future. No need to mess anything up.

Here's a picture of what I believe to be engine block damage:


Unfortunately, Imgur seems to hate my poorly-edited image. I should be able to get the rods and head off on Wednesday. I'll report back then with pictures.
That ain't damage, that's patina...

That was the punchline to a raunchy farmers daughter jokem, but forget the joke itself.

Looks like a trivial scuff on a completely non-critcal surface...dress it out with a scraper and forget it. The bite out of the cylinder base is likely trivial too.
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