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Old 06-20-2013, 04:28 AM   #466
Gordo83
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Originally Posted by darmst6829 View Post
AHRMA has a tough time creating sections that suit the premier heavyweight motorcycles and modern classics let alone adding post vintage to the mix. The heavyweight bikes are difficult to ride in anything other then traditional trials sections and the post vintage riders would be bored silly. Most modern trials held now have a vintage class so I would suggest taking your post vintage machines and ride them. I have ridden a couple modern trials on my classic class Bultaco and would consider the sections as equal or harder then AHRMA 2 line. Again anyone riding a post vintage machine would be bored and unhappy at an AHRMA event.

Not sure it was understood what I meant by Post Vintage. As I said in my first post, I'm talking about bikes from the 80's with twin shocks, drum brakes and are air cooled. Seems like the largest class when I was at VMD in 07,08 and 09 was the Modern Classic. I just don't see how a rider on a 78 TY250 would have fun and be challenged, but a rider on an 80 SWM or an 84 Fantic would be bored and unhappy.
I would think it all depends on who and how the sections are laid out.

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Old 06-20-2013, 05:07 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by Gordo83 View Post
I am very familiar with ITSA. Unfortunately, neither ITSA nor ahrma come very close to New England with their series.
Exactly who are these people voting it down? I would be interested in hearing their reasons for not wanting to expand Vintage Trials.
Here are two organizations whose series may be close enough for you.

http://www.mid-atlantictrials.com/

http://www.newyorkaircooledtrials.com/index.html
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Old 06-20-2013, 05:50 AM   #468
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Thank you. I'm familiar with both orgaizations. I already ride a series, here in New England, but it is a Modern Trials club.
I'm just trying to figure out why ahrma is against adding a class that is, for lack of a better term, 'like design'. As I said, I think ahrma made a great decision to add Post Vintage to Moto Cross, as I saw how large the classes were at Unadilla and how well it was accepted. I feel that getting more Trials riders involved with basically the same bikes, can only be a good thing. And I'm open to hear the reasons why it wouldn't.
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Old 06-20-2013, 06:12 AM   #469
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I get the feeling that there is some truth in the suggestion that AHRMA trials are set out to cater for riders of heavyweight rigid bikes? Obviously if thats the case, it would be a waste of time for them to include a class for the far more competitive post 78 twin-shocks.
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Old 06-20-2013, 06:57 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by darmst6829 View Post
AHRMA has a tough time creating sections that suit the premier heavyweight motorcycles and modern classics let alone adding post vintage to the mix. The heavyweight bikes are difficult to ride in anything other then traditional trials sections and the post vintage riders would be bored silly. Most modern trials held now have a vintage class so I would suggest taking your post vintage machines and ride them. I have ridden a couple modern trials on my classic class Bultaco and would consider the sections as equal or harder then AHRMA 2 line. Again anyone riding a post vintage machine would be bored and unhappy at an AHRMA event.
That's why there are splits in the sections. The disparity between riders and bikes abilities is no greater in vintage Trials than in modern Trials. When I set a modern Trial I acommodate everone from kids on small bikes to old men and women on trail bikes to national level Trials riders.
If Cody Webb came to one of our local events he and I would ride the same loop and sections, on different lines. Comparing the two of us is at least as inequitable as comparing a rigid Norton to a modern Trials bike.
If Ahrma has a "tough time creating sections" they might consider making some changes that would get more people involved in the sport, like acommodating the same vintage Trials bikes as the race bikes they acommodate. More riders involved equals more spectators, observers, and helpers to set meets.
There would also likely be more vintage racers interested in riding the Trials. I see lots of late 70s and early 80s MX bikes at AHRMA events. I suspect those riders are more likely to be interested in riding an SWM than a James.
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:01 PM   #471
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That's why there are splits in the sections. The disparity between riders and bikes abilities is no greater in vintage Trials than in modern Trials. When I set a modern Trial I acommodate everone from kids on small bikes to old men and women on trail bikes to national level Trials riders.

There would also likely be more vintage racers interested in riding the Trials. I see lots of late 70s and early 80s MX bikes at AHRMA events. I suspect those riders are more likely to be interested in riding an SWM than a James.
While I may not be able to write eloquently on why its important to cut off machines after 1979 AHRMA’s mission statement says it all.

"MISSION STATEMENT: Observed trials is a very significant part of historic motorcycle competition. It began as a wintertime sport for European enthusiasts, who tested themselves by tracing ancient Roman roads. These riders negotiated various obstacles along the way, all of which gave test to both man and machine. As the “gentleman’s sport” developed, such obstacles became more specific, and more challenging. From the 1980s until today, the obstacles presented to trials competitors have been inconceivable for most motorcycle riders.
AHRMA’s observed trials goal is to provide its members a safe, historically accurate environment to showcase and experience vintage machinery. The key to this enjoyment is the observed sections. From the 1950s into the ‘70s, sections were mainly composed of wide-open areas of challenging terrain, with the rider’s choice of line determining his/her success. Observed sections reminiscent of this era are critical in AHRMA’s representation of classic observed trials. With period-accurate sections, machines will remain true to their original concept, and the techniques required to ride them will do the same, enhancing the entire vintage trials scene. The trials-riding experience will undoubtedly result in good friends, good rides and good fun."
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:31 AM   #472
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While I may not be able to write eloquently on why its important to cut off machines after 1979 AHRMA’s mission statement says it all.

"MISSION STATEMENT: Observed trials is a very significant part of historic motorcycle competition. It began as a wintertime sport for European enthusiasts, who tested themselves by tracing ancient Roman roads. These riders negotiated various obstacles along the way, all of which gave test to both man and machine. As the “gentleman’s sport” developed, such obstacles became more specific, and more challenging. From the 1980s until today, the obstacles presented to trials competitors have been inconceivable for most motorcycle riders.
AHRMA’s observed trials goal is to provide its members a safe, historically accurate environment to showcase and experience vintage machinery. The key to this enjoyment is the observed sections. From the 1950s into the ‘70s, sections were mainly composed of wide-open areas of challenging terrain, with the rider’s choice of line determining his/her success. Observed sections reminiscent of this era are critical in AHRMA’s representation of classic observed trials. With period-accurate sections, machines will remain true to their original concept, and the techniques required to ride them will do the same, enhancing the entire vintage trials scene. The trials-riding experience will undoubtedly result in good friends, good rides and good fun."

Unfortunately for AHRMA as the older riders who compete on the early rigid bikes, and heavy cumbersome twin-shock bikes, are no longer able to compete, the number of entries will reduce drastically.

There is little or nothing to attract younger competitors to the very early machines. so ultimately unless AHRMA chooses to move with the times or work directly with ITSA to better promote the sport, it seems to me that the demise of trialling under AHRMA rules is simply a matter of time.
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Old 06-21-2013, 04:18 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by darmst6829 View Post
While I may not be able to write eloquently on why its important to cut off machines after 1979 AHRMA’s mission statement says it all.

"MISSION STATEMENT: Observed trials is a very significant part of historic motorcycle competition. It began as a wintertime sport for European enthusiasts, who tested themselves by tracing ancient Roman roads. These riders negotiated various obstacles along the way, all of which gave test to both man and machine. As the “gentleman’s sport” developed, such obstacles became more specific, and more challenging. From the 1980s until today, the obstacles presented to trials competitors have been inconceivable for most motorcycle riders.
AHRMA’s observed trials goal is to provide its members a safe, historically accurate environment to showcase and experience vintage machinery. The key to this enjoyment is the observed sections. From the 1950s into the ‘70s, sections were mainly composed of wide-open areas of challenging terrain, with the rider’s choice of line determining his/her success. Observed sections reminiscent of this era are critical in AHRMA’s representation of classic observed trials. With period-accurate sections, machines will remain true to their original concept, and the techniques required to ride them will do the same, enhancing the entire vintage trials scene. The trials-riding experience will undoubtedly result in good friends, good rides and good fun."

The same could be said for any motorcycle discipline. But riders and racers move on, just as ahrma moved on to include Post Vintage MX.

The riders ability is the key, not the motorcycle itself. If people think that a rider struggling on a 76 Yamaha TY 250 would clean the same line on an 82 Fantic they are mistaken. I think Trials riding has more to do with the rider than the bike than in most other motorsports.
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Old 06-21-2013, 05:50 AM   #474
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I would have thought age of the riders interested in competing on the very old bikes, is also a reason why numbers are going to decline as the years go by?
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Old 06-21-2013, 07:07 AM   #475
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I would have thought age of the riders interested in competing on the very old bikes, is also a reason why numbers are going to decline as the years go by?
I'm sure this is true Twin-shocker. I would also imagine $$ comes in to play. Pretty expensive to restore and keep the older bikes running. At this point someone wanting to give Trials a shot can go on craigslist and pick up a running project bike for around $1000.00.

Really, all you have to do is look at ahrma's 'standings' page for the first 4 events. 22 riders combined in the Girder, Rigid and Premier classes. 56 Riders combined in the Classic and Modern Classic. 48 of those are from the Modern Classic class.
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:04 AM   #476
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Yes cost certainly comes into it. Here in the UK where there are no sensible rules related to older bikes, its possible to buy a brand new Brit powered twin-shock bike , costing £10k+ and to ride in the P65 class!

Guess that sort of thing isnt a problem in the US, but less and less people are prepared to pay large sums of money on the very early bikes, which to be honest are pretty awful to ride, even if the sections are very easy.
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Old 06-21-2013, 01:32 PM   #477
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Originally Posted by darmst6829 View Post
AHRMA has a tough time creating sections that suit the premier heavyweight motorcycles and modern classics let alone adding post vintage to the mix. The heavyweight bikes are difficult to ride in anything other then traditional trials sections and the post vintage riders would be bored silly.
I've ridden a couple vintage trials events in Canada that seemed to have no issue accomodating older (albeit well ridden) pre-65 bikes and twin shocks up to a couple early 80's SWMs.
No cut-off year I was aware of and 3 or 4 line choices seemed to cover all the bases for rider skill and bike class. Perhaps the venues just suited that. No monos obviously!
Not much AHRMA trials in the northeast but I never understood their old pre-74 cutoff for trials (which is more of an MX milestone for bike development then trials) which might explain what the "R" in AHRMA stands for!
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:50 PM   #478
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I would have thought age of the riders interested in competing on the very old bikes, is also a reason why numbers are going to decline as the years go by?
I don’t think that “age of the riders interested in competing on the very old bikes” has anything to do with AHRMA’s problems. I believe the problem is with trials itself. Trials is a lot harder to ride then it looks from the sidelines. I know several AHRMA racers who bought trials motorcycles to ride on Saturday and then gave it up in frustration.
Many of my AHRMA peers (50-60ish) are switching to Premier bikes. The machines are visually interesting and garner the most attention at the events I attend. . The Premier bikes are way before my time but that’s where the hard core AHRMA riders are heading.
The problem with the Premier bikes is that they are expensive to build unlike the later machines that can be found at garage sales inexpensively. Newer trials motorcycles ride better but seem out of place at an AHRMA event. Seige saw the light last year and wrote an article about it titled “How I came to understand Dick Mann’s reasoning” . Though he is writing about vintage MX its in the same vain as our discussion on vintage trials.
http://www.siegecraftnw.com/credo4.htm
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Old 06-22-2013, 12:31 AM   #479
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Thing is David less and less people have the money to build the very costly early bikes, and entries reduce as a result of this. The fact AHRMA has no sensible classes to allow riders on newer and less expensive bikes to compete, will mean numbers of riders continue to reduce, until ultimately its no longer viable to run events.

Unless AHRMA moves with the time, it seems to me that before very long its going to be finished as an organiser of serious competitive trialling. I guess the decision has to made on whether to run the organisation in accord with the whims of a few and carry on treading water, or to look at what ITSA is providing, and seriously consider AHRMA moving in the same direction?

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Old 06-22-2013, 05:15 PM   #480
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Many of my AHRMA peers (50-60ish) are switching to Premier bikes. The machines are visually interesting and garner the most attention at the events I attend. . The Premier bikes are way before my time but that’s where the hard core AHRMA riders are heading.
The problem with the Premier bikes is that they are expensive to build unlike the later machines that can be found at garage sales inexpensively. Newer trials motorcycles ride better but seem out of place at an AHRMA event.
I'm not sure how the latest year they will except, such as a 1979 Bultaco 199, would look out of place at an ahrma event. Especially considering there were 56 bikes of the same style "Classic" and "Modern Classic" and there were only 16 in all the "Premier" classes combined, for the first 4 events of this year.
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