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Old 06-25-2013, 08:44 PM   #61
khager
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowMule View Post
2 gallons in the motorcycle
2 gallons on the ground

Gasoline is made from crude oil
crude oil comes out of the ground
ethanol is made out of corn
corn grows in the ground
call it "recycling", market it "green".

You got it right but backwards. Make sure you put the first two gallons on the ground, to get rid of the residual ethanol in the hose, then two gallons in the motorcycle. Throw a match while leaving QUICKLY!
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:37 PM   #62
stevie88
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Hey Happy, David Pemintal is a pimp for big oil. His credibility on this issue sucks.

http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmg..._June_2010.pdf

Conclusion
A dry grind ethanol plant that produces and sells dry distiller’s grains and uses conventional fossil fuel power for thermal energy and electricity produces nearly two times more energy in the form of ethanol delivered to customers than it uses for corn, processing, and transportation. The ratio is about 2.3 BTU of ethanol for 1 BTU of energy in inputs, when a more generous means of removing byproduct energy is employed.
Some dry mills are already using up to 50 percent biomass power. The energy output for these plants is near 2.8 times energy inputs, even using the conservative byproduct allowance. As processors master the logistics of handling bulky biomass, the energy balance ratio could reach 26 BTUs of ethanol per BTU of inputs used.
Overall then, ethanol has made the transition from an energy sink, to a moderate net energy gain in the 1990s, to a substantial net energy gain in the present. And there are still prospects for improvement.
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Old 06-25-2013, 10:19 PM   #63
michael2wheels
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It's great when you come across threads that not only makes you think about things, but do further research.

It's even changed my purchasing habits……

I filled up my car with E0 fuel today and will fill my motorcycles with E0 fuel tomorrow.

No corn ethanol for me!

Thanks everybody,
Michael
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:37 AM   #64
LuciferMutt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyForNow View Post
Firstly: I nearly pissed my self laughing.

Secondly:

- It takes as much farmland to fuel one American car with ethanol for a year as to feed seven Americans for a year. US Dept of Agriculture Report

- To fuel America’s cars with ethanol would require about 2 billion acres of cropland: more than 5 times all the cropland that is actually and potentially available in the United States. David Pimental, Cornell University

- The total energy input to produce one gallon of ethanol is 129,000 BTU. However, one gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 76,000 BTU: a net loss of 53,600 BTU. Pimental, Cornell U.

- Archer Daniels Midland, a giant corporation that manufactures ethanol, is one of the largest contributors of “soft money” to both the Democratic and Republican parties – ensuring that whichever party is in power, ethanol will be subsidized. By Oct 30, 2002, the company had contributed over $1.1 million to the Democratic party and $2 mil to the Republicans. Every dollar earned by ADM from it ethanol operation costs American taxpayers $30.

- Using a blend of corn ethanol and gas in a car causes MORE pollution than gasoline alone. Not only are you burning energy to make ethanol, but ethanol makes gas more volatile, so when it is blended, more pollution is caused due to evaporation. This is supported by the work done at the EPA and by other scientific groups. The Natural Defense Council & the Clean Air Trust have joined California in suing the EPA over requiring ethanol.

- Ethanol plants do not create more jobs. Minnesota’s Program Evaluation Division concluded that the increased taxes to support ethanol subsidies cause more loss of jobs in retail than those created by the ethanol plants.

- Ethanol plants have been releasing many times greater pollution into the air than previously reported. The ethanol industry will tell you the answer is to fit your plant with a thermal oxidizer – but check out the news articles in St. Paul about the thermal oxidizer on the Gopher State plant. The St. Paul City Council recently voted to support closing down Gopher State.

Clickable Facts You Should Read

1) More energy is used to make a gallon of ethanol than the ethanol contains, according to the only independent analysis of energy use in corn ethanol production. The fact remains that by the time that one BTU of ethanol is used, nearly 2 BTUs (ethanol and the energy used to make it) have been burned (even if you use the most favorable estimate that the ethanol industry itself makes). Both BTU’s have put pollution into the environment. http://hubbert.mines.edu/news/v98n2/mkh-new7.html

2) Ethanol does NOT make a contribution to energy independence. This is a conclusion of the state of MN in evaluation of their ethanol industry. You can do the calculations yourself. Using every kernel of corn produced in the US. will not make a substantial contribution to even the increase in energy demand that is predicted. http://www.auditor.leg.state.mn.us/ped/1997/etoh97.htm

3) The best science says that using a blend of corn ethanol and gas in a car causes MORE pollution than gas alone. Not only are you burning energy to make ethanol, but ethanol makes gas more volatile, so when it is blended, more pollution is caused due to evaporation. This is supported by the work done at the EPA and by other scientific groups. California, with the help of a number of environmental groups is still fighting this requirement in the courts. http://www4.nationalacademies.org/ne...c?OpenDocument

4) Many of the largest environmental groups now oppose corn ethanol. Yes, this is a change. Ten years ago ethanol looked like it might be a good idea, but we now know better. The Natural Defense Council & the Clean Air Trust are two that have joined California in suing the EPA over requiring ethanol

http://www.restoringamerica.org/arch..._sues_epa.html

http://www.cleanairtrust.org/release.061101.html

5) Last May the EPA released a report stating that ethanol plants are major polluters. They have been releasing many times greater pollution into the air than previously reported. The ethanol industry will tell you the answer is to fit your plant with a thermal oxidizer – but check out the news articles in St. Paul about the thermal oxidizer on the Gopher State plant. The St. Paul City Council recently voted to support closing down Gopher State. http://www.startribune.com/stories/1557/3877144.html

6) Ethanol production uses a tremendous amount of water. People in WI have found that using too much water can have dire consequences. In many areas of WI the ground water is not being recharged as quickly as it is being used. This creates water quality problems in addition to simply the lack of water. When the water table is drawn down, changes can occur that actually cause contamination of wells - near Oshkosh wells are so contaminated with Arsenic that people cannot drink their water. ("Water Rich Water Poor" from Wisconsin Public Television, does an excellent job of presenting this issue.) In the Oshkosh area the arsenic was originally in a water insoluble form, however once the water table was drawn down past the layer that contained the arsenic, exposure to the air converted the arsenic into a water-soluble form. Once the arsenic is in a soluble form it can contaminate the wells.

7) Much of the water used by an ethanol plant must be discharged somewhere, possibly into a nearby creek or river. Although you may be told that the water is perfectly safe, internal memos written at the Wisconsin DNR state concerns about the release of such water without a sewage treatment backup.

8) Corn ethanol is the epitome of bad farm policy. Minnesota has found that corn prices do NOT increase around ethanol plants. They have at least 16 plants; many of them have been in operation for close to 10 years. Their conclusion is only the investors in the plants, not the local farmers, make any profit. In fact Archers Daniel Midland collects the lion's share of federal ethanol subsidies. Ethanol does nothing to support the typical family farmer. http://www.auditor.leg.state.mn.us/ped/1997/pe9704.htm

9) Federal ethanol subsidies, which are billed as helping our farmers, are not even limited to crops produced in the U.S. ADM is importing ethanol produced in the Caribbean from surplus wine made in Europe http://ga1.org/alert-description.tcl?alert_id=3662

10) Ethanol plants do not create more jobs. Minnesota concluded that the increased taxes to support ethanol subsidies cause more loss of jobs than those created by the ethanol plants. http://www.auditor.leg.state.mn.us/ped/1997/etoh97.htm

11) Ethanol plants can create nuisance problems: huge increases in truck and rail traffic and odor problems that have been described as sickening.

Fantastic post. All true, all scary shit.
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:46 AM   #65
SourKraut
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael2wheels View Post
It's great when you come across threads that not only makes you think about things, but do further research.

It's even changed my purchasing habits……

I filled up my car with E0 fuel today and will fill my motorcycles with E0 fuel tomorrow.

No corn ethanol for me!

Thanks everybody,
Michael
Consider yourself lucky that you have a choice. There is no such thing as E0 gasoline in this part of the country.
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Old 06-26-2013, 06:48 AM   #66
stevie88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuciferMutt View Post
Fantastic post. All true, all scary shit.
Not even close to true. But if fairy tails help you sleep better, more power to ya.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:07 AM   #67
stevie88
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Originally Posted by HappyForNow View Post
As you said earlier, "It's not bullshit. It's math".
http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmg...m_20012008.pdf
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:23 AM   #68
stevie88
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To quote a friend of mine

The Supreme Court put the legal challenge to E-15 brought by Big Oil, desperate to defend shrinking petroleum market share, and its school of sucker fish that were hungry for cheap corn to bed by refusing to hear their case which says it had no merit. Now the work continues to introduce E-15 into the market place. Big Oil owns a bunch of politicians too but they are worthless given the congressional dysfunction. Nobody that needs or wants anything from Congress can get it. Sometime that is a good thing.
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Old 06-26-2013, 08:54 AM   #69
dwoodward
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Originally Posted by stevie88 View Post
Hey Happy, David Pemintal is a pimp for big oil. His credibility on this issue sucks.
OK.

Quote:
http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/USDA_etoh_energy_efficiency_June_2010.pdf

ethanol.org... "The American Coalition for Ethanol".

Yeah, that's going to be an unbiased source.


dwoodward screwed with this post 06-26-2013 at 09:33 AM
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Old 06-26-2013, 10:42 AM   #70
stevie88
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Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
OK.


ethanol.org... "The American Coalition for Ethanol".

Yeah, that's going to be an unbiased source.

The links in it have more validity than the other bull shit posted here. Anyone who claims that ethanol has a negative energy equation is talking out of their ass.
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Old 06-26-2013, 11:10 AM   #71
rdtrvlr
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I find it interesting that Stevie88 seems to be in the minority here. yet, according to him, he's the only one in the room that is correct and factual.

after 26k mi on my KLR, I absolutely pick up approx 4mpg every time I put E0 in it. with out exception.

I made a delivery to a "biofuel" (read ethanol) in Fulton ny when they were building it. I met a guy in a suit that said he was a consultant from Cornell univ.

I asked what he was consulting on. to he asked if I had kids. " I do". he replied " when they grow up you can tell them that you made a delivery to one of the biggest scams ever heaped on the American public"

he went on to explain that by the time the land is plowed, crop planted then harvested then trucked/ trained to the plant, the diesel emissions far exceed the benefits (if any) reaped from ethanol.

the guy went on for almost an hour . this was in 02
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Old 06-26-2013, 12:27 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by stevie88 View Post
The links in it have more validity than the other bull shit posted here. Anyone who claims that ethanol has a negative energy equation is talking out of their ass.
Listen to the man! He knows a thing or two about talking out of his ass!
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:21 PM   #73
JGoody
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I would gladly pay $1 more a gallon if I could get Ethanol Free. But sadly in So Cal the closest station with E0 is in Arizona!
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:33 PM   #74
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The Biomass conversion is also a scam. It takes fuel to cut and transport the biomass. It removes nutrients from the soil that have to be replaced, even hemp for Biomass will have nutrient loss. You can not take take take and never give. The replacement will use energy too. Scam 1, meet Scam 2.

Rod
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Old 06-26-2013, 09:39 PM   #75
khager
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Originally Posted by rdtrvlr View Post
I find it interesting that Stevie88 seems to be in the minority here. yet, according to him, he's the only one in the room that is correct and factual.

If you made buku's of $$$$ because of the mandate, and had your XXXXX #'s of acres of farmland quadruple in value in the last 5 years then you would understand. Hellll Yessssssss, ethanol babbyyyyy fookin A!
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