ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-26-2013, 10:20 AM   #16
sphyrnidus
born to ride
 
sphyrnidus's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Netherlands
Oddometer: 126
The statistics on motorcycle related accidents vary much depending on the age of the rider. In de MAIDS report on European two wheelers, which also includes mopeds, tells us that a majority of accidents happen below the age of 24. Between 24-55 the fatality rate is rather similar to car accidents and after the age of 55 the risk is somewhat bigger again.
Now the age of people in combat tends also to be the younger age group. The fatality rate for adults on motorcycles is not that bad.
In the Netherlands they have several types of training. Some are to make you a better rider, some focus on risk recognition. The people who did the latter die less often, the people who did the advanced motorcycle training actually got into more accidents because they dared more and were more focused on the riding than on the dangers.
__________________
If your destination is unknown, you'll always arrive
sphyrnidus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 10:24 AM   #17
Bluebone
straight to hell
 
Bluebone's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Haysville, KS
Oddometer: 2,328
was the comparison to 'war' just to be overly dramatic? how many people ride 400 miles in a day? not many and certainly not EVERY day. how does it compare to say, swimming or hang gliding or perhaps or the workplace. the whole statement is pointless. it's up to the individual to determine what his/her level of accepted risk is.
__________________
Alcohol Cuz no great story ever started with a salad!!
Bluebone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 11:22 AM   #18
Paebr332
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Location: Shippensburg, PA
Oddometer: 913
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceri JC View Post
It's one of the weird things about risk, even when presented with concrete evidence to the contrary, otherwise rationale people have an extremely hard time debasing their "gut instinct" enough to do what is statistically safest.
The term is Neglect of Probability.

Humans are really, really bad at properly accounting for either highly likely or highly unlikely probabilities. Even though over 30,000 Americans will die in automobile crashes this year almost no one gives it the slightest thought when they get in/on their vehicle. On the flip side, people freak out about boarding a plane or fear lightning strikes or murder at the hands of strangers, all of which are statistically extremely unlikely to ever occur to you.

The use of the micromort metric should clue everyone into the fact that while statistically motorcycle riding is comparable to being a soldier in Afghanistan the odds of death actually are very low for both. Poor diet and lack of exercise is much more likely to kill either one.

Paebr332 screwed with this post 06-26-2013 at 06:24 PM
Paebr332 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 11:30 AM   #19
GoUglyEarly
Boots Still Clean
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: Newt Jersey
Oddometer: 73
How many "jigawatts" do I qualify for?

-Central NJ
-Commute via car on Route 1 during Rush Hour 2x per day
-Approx 25% of local traffic consisting of foreign nationals with <2 yrs driving exp.
-Traffic lights every 21.3 feet
-Police response time to home alarm = 34 minutes (despite living within 1.5 miles of police station)
-Work in a building with medical research laboratories
-In between PHL and NYC
-In between and within 50 miles of numerous military bases
-In between and within 50 miles of multiple nuclear power plants
-Under major flight paths
-Electrical service subscriber
-Access to community pool
-Access to red meat
-Access to Large Soda
-Meteors, Comets
-Bears
-Pitbulls
-Yellowstone Supervolcano
-Global Warming
-Hurricane Sandy
-Justin Beiber

Statistically, I must already be dead.
GoUglyEarly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 11:32 AM   #20
ArmyJoe
Beastly Adventurer
 
ArmyJoe's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Location: Columbus, OH
Oddometer: 1,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paebr332 View Post
Soldiers in A-stan don't have any easy way to dramatically reduce their risks.
Eye pro and reflective belts.
__________________
2009 Can-Am Spyder RS, 2008 Yamaha WR250R

My latest adventures detailed at ArmyJoe's Perpetual Picture Thread:
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=888783
ArmyJoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 02:05 PM   #21
glasswave
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Wasatch Mtns, UT
Oddometer: 926
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
Riding while impaired, excessive speed, tired, angry and not knowing how to control the bike accounts for fully 90% of "accidents" while riding.
Not so, failure to yield (on the part of an auto motorist, usually turning left in front of an oncoming moto) is right up there with excessive speed or riding beyond one's ability. These acciedents usually occur on high speed surface street's close to one's home.

Most serious accidents fall into one of these two categories and are very close to an even split.

Contributing factors are drunkenness and darkness. These are not really causes. Not knowing how to ride is a subjective and infinite scale that cannot easily be quantified, but at least one study shows that those who have had formal training are much less likely to have a serious accident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebone View Post
was the comparison to 'war' just to be overly dramatic?... how does it compare to say, swimming or hang gliding or perhaps or the workplace. the whole statement is pointless. it's up to the individual to determine what his/her level of accepted risk is.
Yes, I'm sure it is to be overly dramatic. Most soldiers in Afghanistan see very little, if any actual combat. We have had 10's of thousands of soldiers in Afghanistan for more than 10 years, with less than 3500 killed.

OTH, motorcycling is much more dangerous than most adventure sports, likely including the two you've mentioned. Oft repeated stats say you are 35 times more likely to die in a motorcycle accident than in a a car accident (per mile ridden). Most "adventure sports" are much safer than driving a car, a commonly made comparison.

Dakez is right though, in that there is much that can be done to lower the risk serious injury or death when motorcycling.

#1. Always wear a helmet, gloves and sturdy footwear. Statistically, other gear does not seem to do much is terms of reducing serious injury or death. Abrasion injuries while often painful and scarring are seldom serious.

#2. Never drink and ride and minimize your riding at night.

#3. Learn good motorcycling control and accident avoidance skills and practice them frequently.

#4. Ride conservatively, save excessive speed for the track.

#5. Minimize riding on multi-lane high speed surface streets, especially during high traffic times. Motorbike commuters significantly increase their exposure to risk.

Following these suggestions will significantly lower the hazard level of the sport.
__________________
Indian Himalaya:Gangotri-Shimla-Manali-Pavarti-Spiti-Leh-Kargil-Padum-Sringhar-Daramsala (3 mo.--2x)
Kazakstan-Krygyzstan-Tajikistan-Xin Xiang to Lhasa, Tibet on China 219!-Nepal (7 months)
Santiago, Chile to Ushuia Argentina and up to Cusco, Peru (7 months)
Peruvian Andes (3 months)
N Chile - Medellin, Colombia (3 months) Cartegena, CO to N Chile (3 months)

glasswave screwed with this post 07-04-2013 at 07:09 PM
glasswave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 07:31 PM   #22
glasswave
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Wasatch Mtns, UT
Oddometer: 926
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyForNow View Post
More people have been murdered in Detroit in the past 8 years than in the past 10 years in Afghanistan.
I guess you don't consider Afghan civilians to be people.


"The decade-long War in Afghanistan (2001–present) has caused the deaths of thousands of Afghan civilians directly from insurgent and foreign military action, as well as the deaths of possibly tens of thousands of Afghan civilians indirectly as a consequence of displacement, starvation, disease, exposure, lack of medical treatment, and crime resulting from the war."
wikipedia

__________________
Indian Himalaya:Gangotri-Shimla-Manali-Pavarti-Spiti-Leh-Kargil-Padum-Sringhar-Daramsala (3 mo.--2x)
Kazakstan-Krygyzstan-Tajikistan-Xin Xiang to Lhasa, Tibet on China 219!-Nepal (7 months)
Santiago, Chile to Ushuia Argentina and up to Cusco, Peru (7 months)
Peruvian Andes (3 months)
N Chile - Medellin, Colombia (3 months) Cartegena, CO to N Chile (3 months)
glasswave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 07:43 PM   #23
dolomoto
Destroyer of Motorcycles
 
dolomoto's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: Gen. Oglethorpe's 1733 folly
Oddometer: 2,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by glasswave View Post
...snipped...
#3. Learn good motorcycling control and accident avoidance skills and practice them frequently.

#4. Ride conservatively, save excessive speed for the track.. ....
Gold, pure gold.

If you do these two things, odds are that you will not be in a moto mishap of your own doing...and much less likely to be in a mishap of another's doing. What gear you wear is irrelevant if you can avoid the mishap.
__________________
Hot, Nasty, Bad-Ass Speed tours: 2008,2010,2014

Things I've ate/cooked.
dolomoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 07:59 PM   #24
Stan_R80/7
Beastly Gnarly
 
Stan_R80/7's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: VA
Oddometer: 1,271
A term not talked about much, is defensive driving. Translated to motorcycling, that is anticipating bone headed maneuvers and possible interactions with other drivers that can result in a collision (or evasive action). Conservative riding is one description, but a more complete description, substituting 'riding for driving' is (from wikipedia):

The standard Safe Practices for Motor Vehicle Operations, ANSI/ASSE Z15.1, defines defensive driving as "driving to save lives, time, and money, in spite of the conditions around you and the actions of others."[1] This definition is taken from the National Safety Council's Defensive Driving Course. It is a form of training for motor vehicle drivers that goes beyond mastery of the rules of the road and the basic mechanics of driving. Its aim is to reduce the risk of collision by anticipating dangerous situations, despite adverse conditions or the mistakes of others. This can be achieved through adherence to a variety of general rules, as well as the practice of specific driving techniques.
Stan_R80/7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 09:17 PM   #25
dirty_t
Gnarly Adventurer
 
dirty_t's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: NorCal
Oddometer: 153
Liars, damn liars and statisticians...

I would imagine, statistically speaking of course, that reading web discussion forums (especially motorcyling ones) exposes you to a greater risk of finding out about how dangerous motorcycling is, than your risk of sustaining serious injury or death from riding your motorcycle.

So.

Quit reading, and go out and ride.
dirty_t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 09:34 PM   #26
ObiJohn
Screaming Banshee
 
ObiJohn's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2010
Location: Seattle suburbia
Oddometer: 515
This reminds me of the folks who get bent out of shape over the risks of guns. If you don't do drugs, sell drugs, or hang around those who do or sell drugs, your chances of being killed as the result of a gunshot wound are lower than your chances of winning the lottery.

Similarly, not riding at night, not riding in a reckless manner, ATTGATT, and not riding impaired will greatly reduce your odds of serious injury or death. We have the counterexample... when someone around a campfire says, "Hold my beer, and watch this!"

No one says we have to be a statistic... we can choose.
__________________
Everything is on its way to somewhere...
ObiJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 11:43 PM   #27
BCKRider
Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2012
Oddometer: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObiJohn View Post
This reminds me of the folks who get bent out of shape over the risks of guns. If you don't do drugs, sell drugs, or hang around those who do or sell drugs, your chances of being killed as the result of a gunshot wound are lower than your chances of winning the lottery.

Similarly, not riding at night, not riding in a reckless manner, ATTGATT, and not riding impaired will greatly reduce your odds of serious injury or death. We have the counterexample... when someone around a campfire says, "Hold my beer, and watch this!"

No one says we have to be a statistic... we can choose.
After recently reading a book "The Last Gun" published in 2012 I think I have to quarrel with you first paragraph. A few memorable things stand out from my reading of this book from the library:
1. For at least the last decade, the total number of gun deaths in the US has increased slightly almost every year, though the number of households that admit to owning one or more guns has decreased to something like 25%.
2. The total number of automotive deaths (around 30,000 a year) shows a slight downward trend, though every year there are more vehicles on the road.
3. In 10 states, your statistical odds of dying from a gunshot are almost as great as dying from a motor vehicle crash.
4. The "big change" in gun sales the last couple decades (which if you are an older hunter/target shooter you likely missed as I did) is that gun manufacturers have seen the steady decline in younger people buying shotguns and deer rifles. No question; hunting license sales are down across both the US and Canada. (And we wonder why there are so many deer?) So the gun companies responded by selling the idea of "personal defense" with semi- auto (and large magazine) rifles and pistols modeled on military weapons.

Apparently, they have been quite successful. And many of those guns, easily purchased in the US, also end up in Mexico and Canada.

Please don't think me "anti-gun." I treasure my shotguns which I've used for both targets, pheasant and water fowl. I like my .22 rim fires for both targets and dispatching the occasional raccoon or bobcat that was killing domestic birds. I've also used both types of guns to introduce my grandchildren to target shooting and gun safety. And I wish I had been introduced to deer hunting at an earlier age - they are fine food.

Read this book, no matter your present opinion on gun issues. I guarantee it will give you food for thought.

Sorry if one guy's single paragraph hi-jacked this thread. I have thoughts on the other stuff as well, but will leave it for later.
BCKRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 04:48 AM   #28
chasssmash OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
chasssmash's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Oddometer: 1,249
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_t View Post
Liars, damn liars and statisticians...

I would imagine, statistically speaking of course, that reading web discussion forums (especially motorcyling ones) exposes you to a greater risk of finding out about how dangerous motorcycling is, than your risk of sustaining serious injury or death from riding your motorcycle.

So.

Quit reading, and go out and ride.

Mmmm...I think I prefer to live in the real world. Of all the dead people I have seen almost every single one killed accidentally has been killed in a motorcycle crash. Maybe it's just a coincidence .

Like I said I ride every day and I won't stop doing that. But it is interesting and important to know the raw statistical risk involved in this pursuit.
chasssmash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 05:17 AM   #29
Jacl-Kampuchea
Booze Merchant
 
Jacl-Kampuchea's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: I see Drunk People.
Oddometer: 715
Quote:
Originally Posted by chasssmash View Post

Like I said I ride every day and I won't stop doing that. But it is interesting and important to know the raw statistical risk involved in this pursuit.
Is it?

Why?

I don't find it interesting nor important. Just a great big statistical mountain. And no stats presented in that book really apply to ME or YOU, just to the LCD's.
Jacl-Kampuchea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 05:20 AM   #30
Paebr332
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Location: Shippensburg, PA
Oddometer: 913
Quote:
Originally Posted by chasssmash View Post
Mmmm...I think I prefer to live in the real world. Of all the dead people I have seen almost every single one killed accidentally has been killed in a motorcycle crash. Maybe it's just a coincidence .

Like I said I ride every day and I won't stop doing that. But it is interesting and important to know the raw statistical risk involved in this pursuit.
If you want to consider your risks in a statistically valid manner you cannot just use the overall motorcycle death rate. The reason is this statistical cohort consists of a number of distinct subgroups that have significantly different death rates. Those who ride after drinking are one such subset. Young riders on sport bikes are another.

Assuming that YOUR death risk is the same as that of a rider who engages in known risky behaviour is a poor assumption. Unless, that is, you are a squid who rides without proper gear after drinking and at speeds well above your skill level.
Paebr332 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 09:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014