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Old 06-26-2013, 10:18 PM   #76
stevie88
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Scientific Support for Ethanol
The net energy question always comes up. Does corn ethanol produce more energy than it consumes? The answer is “yes,” according to Science and the U.S. Department of Energy.
Support for ethanol comes from a 2006 study in the prestigious journal Science which found that, “Ethanol can replace gasoline with significant environmental benefits...
Professors Dan Kammen and Alex Farrell of the Energy and Resources Group at UC Berkeley, with their students Rich Plevin, Brian Turner and Andy Jones along with Michael O’Hare, a professor in the Goldman School of Public Policy, deconstructed six separate high-profile studies of ethanol. They assessed the studies’ assumptions and then reanalyzed each after correcting errors, inconsistencies and outdated information regarding the amount of energy used to grow corn and make ethanol, and the energy output in the form of fuel and corn byproducts.
Once these changes were made in the six studies, each yielded the same conclusion about energy: Producing ethanol from corn uses much less petroleum than producing gasoline. “It is better to use various inputs to grow corn and make ethanol and use that in your cars than it is to use the gasoline and fossil fuels directly,” said Kammen, who is co-director of the Berkeley Institute of the Environment and UC Berkeley’s Class of 1935 Distinguished Chair of Energy...
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Old 06-26-2013, 10:42 PM   #77
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The sky is falling, the sky is falling. Sure is a lot of misconceptions, outright bullshit, and scared people about the new fuel.

OMG, my gas tank is going to swell on my Ducati. OK, there's about 5 of them on this site. Get a new tank, and don't trip.

OMG, my seals are going to dry out and start leaking. Yeah, right.

OMG, my gas mileage is going to go down. You're still getting 40mpg, correct? It ain't that big of a deal.

OMG, I've got the constitutional right to buy gas without ethanol in it. I'm going to vote for someone else. Who? They are all in the pockets of big business.

You could always buys cans of VP race gas, higher octane, no ethanol, but at about twice the price gas in Europe, maybe $15 or $20 per gallon.

In the big scheme of things, we, as motorcyclists, don't really matter. We are a blip on the screen, nothing more. We ride toys. Some people get really emotionally attached to their bikes, I guess you're shit out of luck if they won't run on the new fuel. But the motorcycle manufacturers will adapt or go out of business. They have to.
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:04 AM   #78
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NOT a fan of ethanol . There used to be a TV series about alternative energy where they traveled the country in variously powered vehicles. One particular episode they said there was a GRASS that was easier and cheaper to grow , yet would produce MORE ethanol per acre.
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Old 06-27-2013, 04:20 AM   #79
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NOT a fan of ethanol . There used to be a TV series about alternative energy where they traveled the country in variously powered vehicles. One particular episode they said there was a GRASS that was easier and cheaper to grow , yet would produce MORE ethanol per acre.
Switchgrass......

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...anol-than-corn


This has been and will continue to be buried by the lobyists for corn based ethanol....
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Old 06-27-2013, 05:29 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by stevie88 View Post
Scientific Support for Ethanol
snip
Once these changes were made in the six studies, each yielded the same conclusion about energy: Producing ethanol from corn uses much less petroleum than producing gasoline. “It is better to use various inputs to grow corn and make ethanol and use that in your cars than it is to use the gasoline and fossil fuels directly,” said Kammen, who is co-director of the Berkeley Institute of the Environment and UC Berkeley’s Class of 1935 Distinguished Chair of Energy...
OK. It's still about choice and individual requirements. I think the E10 was pretty well established with a minimal of grumbling. Now E15 comes along. It may be that most of our "toys" can deal with E10, not sure about E15, and fear that Eevenmore will be next. While we have a choice between E10 and E85, it doesn't seem like we will have a choice between E10 and E15. Not acceptable to most and thus the much more focused and vocal grumbling. No surprise.
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Old 06-27-2013, 06:01 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Navy Chief View Post
Switchgrass......

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...anol-than-corn


This has been and will continue to be buried by the lobbyists for corn based ethanol....
The problem is alcohol from corn is easy and the left over distillers grain is a valuable animal food. It is compact and easy to store. Common yeast does most of the work

Ethanol from grass at this time requires much different different process. Fermentation of grass does not yield significant alcohol. Manufactured enzymes are used, this is more expensive than corn alcohol. The left overs are not nearly as useful, not much feed value. More volume and weight to transport and long term storage is expensive too.

No free ride.

Rod
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Old 06-27-2013, 07:20 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
The problem is alcohol from corn is easy and the left over distillers grain is a valuable animal food. It is compact and easy to store. Common yeast does most of the work

Ethanol from grass at this time requires much different different process. Fermentation of grass does not yield significant alcohol. Manufactured enzymes are used, this is more expensive than corn alcohol. The left overs are not nearly as useful, not much feed value. More volume and weight to transport and long term storage is expensive too.

No free ride.

Rod
Nope no free ride, but instead of placing finding and effort into solving these issues we are continuing with a heavily subsidized loser of a program because it lines peoples pockets...
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Old 06-27-2013, 07:38 AM   #83
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Not even close to true. But if fairy tails help you sleep better, more power to ya.

You might want to talk to some real engineers about this stuff...
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:51 AM   #84
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Nope no free ride, but instead of placing finding and effort into solving these issues we are continuing with a heavily subsidized loser of a program because it lines peoples pockets...
See? Just more BS! There are no subsidies going to ethanol. It is economically competitive with oil.
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:47 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by stevie88 View Post
Then you need to count a good portion of the military budget, the tax credits and the oil depletion allowance, etc that goes to petroleum companies and add that to the cost of gas. Btw, there are no subsidies going to ethanol producers and there are no price support payments going to corn growers either.
I have several corn producing family members that would be happy to debate this with you. (My family has been farming for over 125 years.)
They plant more hybrids that go into ethanol production than any feed or seed hybrid because they receive more money for it...in fact, more than 3-4 times as much money for it than pre-Renewable Fuel Standard mandate.

Also, your incorrect about ethanol producers not getting subsidies. Tax credits are most definitely subsidies and every new ethanol plant that goes up in Iowa has a healthy tax credit to go along with it.
Granted, the $6 billion/year subsidies that have been in place since 1979 were finally killed but you forget all about the Renewable Fuel Standard which which has a slowly increasing mandate which *requires* a certain percentage of corn be produced for ethanol production (37% for 2011-2012, higher for 2013-2014).

In fact, as the Congressional Budget Office wrote back in 2010(Source):

"In the future, the scheduled increase in mandated volumes would require biofuels to be produced in amounts that are probably beyond what the market would produce even if the effects of the tax credits were included." [Italics mine.]
In other words, the mandates have grown so large that the tax credits barely made a difference anymore. Demand for ethanol is driven by the mandates, not by the tax credit. When you take away the tax credit, nothing happens: Demand stays high because the law says so, corn prices go up accordingly, and corn farmers stay rich. The subsidies were a nice little fillip on top of that, but at this point it's basically chump change.

So there's your facts, Stevie. I won't get into the *FACT* that ethanol makes mileage suffer. Because several thousand users at www.fuelly.com have proven just that and have the *FACTS* to back it up.

You are wrong, plain and simple. Best to just accept your textual beating like a man and move on.
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:49 AM   #86
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See? Just more BS! There are no subsidies going to ethanol. It is economically competitive with oil.
So you are honestly going to say that the farmers growing corn for ethanol production are not subsidized?
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:55 AM   #87
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So you are honestly going to say that the farmers growing corn for ethanol production are not subsidized?
I will agree with him that they are *NO LONGER* subsidized (stopped in 2010) but the drastic rise in corn prices, far exceeded the need for subsidies anymore. Corn prices have skyrocketed in the face of the Renewable Fuel Standard. So in a way he is right, but to say the corn growers aren't benefiting greatly from government mandates is naive at best and blatantly ignorant at worst.
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:49 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by ZLTFUL View Post
I have several corn producing family members that would be happy to debate this with you. (My family has been farming for over 125 years.)
They plant more hybrids that go into ethanol production than any feed or seed hybrid because they receive more money for it...in fact, more than 3-4 times as much money for it than pre-Renewable Fuel Standard mandate.

Also, your incorrect about ethanol producers not getting subsidies. Tax credits are most definitely subsidies and every new ethanol plant that goes up in Iowa has a healthy tax credit to go along with it.
Granted, the $6 billion/year subsidies that have been in place since 1979 were finally killed but you forget all about the Renewable Fuel Standard which which has a slowly increasing mandate which *requires* a certain percentage of corn be produced for ethanol production (37% for 2011-2012, higher for 2013-2014).

In fact, as the Congressional Budget Office wrote back in 2010(Source):

"In the future, the scheduled increase in mandated volumes would require biofuels to be produced in amounts that are probably beyond what the market would produce even if the effects of the tax credits were included." [Italics mine.]
In other words, the mandates have grown so large that the tax credits barely made a difference anymore. Demand for ethanol is driven by the mandates, not by the tax credit. When you take away the tax credit, nothing happens: Demand stays high because the law says so, corn prices go up accordingly, and corn farmers stay rich. The subsidies were a nice little fillip on top of that, but at this point it's basically chump change.

So there's your facts, Stevie. I won't get into the *FACT* that ethanol makes mileage suffer. Because several thousand users at www.fuelly.com have proven just that and have the *FACTS* to back it up.

You are wrong, plain and simple. Best to just accept your textual beating like a man and move on.
Your post is the perfect example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:54 PM   #89
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Your post is the perfect example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.
Oh I guarantee you I have far more factual knowledge on the subject than you do.
37,000 acres between corn, beans, wheat, sunflower and cattle across 3 states.
125+ years of family farming.
Direct relationships with 3 companies that have built a total of 7 ethanol plants in Iowa and South Dakota.
And the fact that I work for the USDA.

But hey...you keep spewing your opinion as some delusional fantasy world "facts" and I will rebutt them with real world facts.
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:55 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by ZLTFUL View Post
I will agree with him that they are *NO LONGER* subsidized (stopped in 2010) but the drastic rise in corn prices, far exceeded the need for subsidies anymore. Corn prices have skyrocketed in the face of the Renewable Fuel Standard. So in a way he is right, but to say the corn growers aren't benefiting greatly from government mandates is naive at best and blatantly ignorant at worst.
Corn prices are high right now due to extreme weather events the past couple of years. Before this growing season turned to shit, economists were predicting burdensome supplies with the fall harvest and dramatically lower prices.
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