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Old 06-27-2013, 04:39 AM   #31
Navy Chief
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ummmmm ya,

I will take a 400 mile day in the saddle over having mortars and rockets fired into my compound every day anytime....

Statistics don't show the whole picture, as has been said on a bike I can control the risk level to a certain degree through various means.

There is nothing you can do about a RPG impacting next to you walking to the latrine...
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Old 06-27-2013, 05:35 AM   #32
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I'd say the author is writing bullshit for monetary reasons. I was a scout pilot in Vietnam. I've been racing and riding motorcycles since my tour ended. There is no comparison. Not even statistically. I would guess that if you added up all the combat mission days from 1965 to the end Lam Son 719 in April 1971, the crew losses per day would be immeasurably higher than any type of motorcycle riding statistic you could invent. Actually, you could just take the flight crew losses from Lam Son 719 alone.

LS719 was the South Vietnamese attack into Laos. Some twelve weeks worth of campaign. Helicopters from the 101st Airborne flew them in and then tried to get them out after being rebuffed by the NVA. The losses were staggering: 168 helicopters destroyed and over 600 more damaged...

Why people who know nothing about war continually attempt to draw comparisons with everyday living is beyond me. I've never heard of a motorcyclist suffering from post traumatic stress disorder from riding.
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Old 06-27-2013, 06:02 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantah View Post
I'd say the author is writing bullshit for monetary reasons. I was a scout pilot in Vietnam. I've been racing and riding motorcycles since my tour ended. There is no comparison. Not even statistically. I would guess that if you added up all the combat mission days from 1965 to the end Lam Son 719 in April 1971, the crew losses per day would be immeasurably higher than any type of motorcycle riding statistic you could invent. Actually, you could just take the flight crew losses from Lam Son 719 alone.

LS719 was the South Vietnamese attack into Laos. Some twelve weeks worth of campaign. Helicopters from the 101st Airborne flew them in and then tried to get them out after being rebuffed by the NVA. The losses were staggering: 168 helicopters destroyed and over 600 more damaged...

Why people who know nothing about war continually attempt to draw comparisons with everyday living is beyond me. I've never heard of a motorcyclist suffering from post traumatic stress disorder from riding.
Afghanistan is a VERY different war than Vietnam. Vastly different casualty and mortality rates. If we compared mortality rates from Vietnam with motorcycle riding they are orders of magnitude apart.

Comparing war to other things is a valid measure as war is generally considered the riskiest endeavor people engage in. It is the only one where other thinking humans actively are bent on killing you. So finding mundane activites with war-like fatality rates gives us some idea of comparative risks.
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Old 06-27-2013, 06:28 AM   #34
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I definitely accept that these raw statistics do not tell the whole story and are definitely generalized.

In a way it's like smoking.Statistically it shortens your life but you can ameliorate it by being in great shape for example.

However I also don't think it makes sense just to say they are completely invalidated if you wear the proper gear or don't drink and ride.

For example I never drink and ride but I do ride in the Winter on ice and snow just to get to work. So while I decrease one risk I increase another.

Personally I like looking at statistics.The one that told me there is a 30 times greater chance of getting shot if you have a gun in your house influenced me to get rid of my guns. Despite the fact that I was careful with them I could clearly see that they posed a substantial risk to me and my kids, one way or another. Also the statistics on the dangers of swimming pools has changed the way I treat my pool. I almost had 2 kids drown in my pool over the years so for me at least the statistics had validity on their surface.

Another example is that I just bought a convertible to do chores with.Things I did exclusively on my bike.My main justification for this expense was that it would reduce my risk going everywhere on the bike. Basically I did cost/benefit analysis and if made sense to reduce my risk. Everyone has a free choice but I think it's good to know the odds either way

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Old 06-27-2013, 07:06 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by chasssmash View Post
I definitely accept that these raw statistics do not tell the whole story and are definitely generalized.

In a way it's like smoking.Statistically it shortens your life but you can ameliorate it by being in great shape for example.

However I also don't think it makes sense just to say they are completely invalidated if you wear the proper gear or don't drink and ride.

For example I never drink and ride but I do ride in the Winter on ice and snow just to get to work. So while I decrease one risk I increase another.

Personally I like looking at statistics.The one that told me there is a 30 times greater chance of getting shot if you have a gun in your house influenced me to get rid of my guns. Despite the fact that I was careful with them I could clearly see that they posed a substantial risk to me and my kids, one way or another. Also the statistics on the dangers of swimming pools has changed the way I treat my pool. I almost had 2 kids drown in my pool over the years so for me at least the statistics had validity on their surface.

Another example is that I just bought a convertible to do chores with.Things I did exclusively on my bike.My main justification for this expense was that it would reduce my risk going everywhere on the bike. Basically I did cost/benefit analysis and if made sense to reduce my risk. Everyone has a free choice but I think it's good to know the odds either way
One thing the statistics for all of these won't show is how the number of people who are Darwin Award candidates to begin with skew the numbers. I find it sad that people would be willing to remove things they enjoy in their lives based on statistics.

Remember: There are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics.

The numbers can be made to show almost anything, it does not mean they are accurate or correct..
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Old 06-27-2013, 07:20 AM   #36
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Taking the time and having the interest to actually learn to ride is about the biggest safety feature there is on any bike.

Some ride as a novelty and are shocked when they're run over in an intersection,a long time rider would have been scanning that intersection and proceeding when safe,and only when safe,not when the light turns green.

Many really bad crashes are operator caused 100%,forgetting what your doing and running off the road or into a tree or car,hard to blame the bike but people do. Then there's the drunks on bikes and 0 experience thrill riders.

Yeah its dangerous riding bikes,having concentration and not riding like a squid goes a long ways in avoiding drama,if your always doing panic stops and thanking the ABS for saving your ass again.............your doing something very wrong.

Magazine guys are always going on about ABS saving their lives,if they werent riding like they were in a superbike race it wouldnt happen much at all.

If a person looks at statistics a lot,it would seem any set of statistics can be found to prove almost anything,it depends on who is paid and how much for each set of stats.
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Old 06-27-2013, 07:20 AM   #37
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This is why I always stop after riding 399 miles.
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Old 06-27-2013, 07:24 AM   #38
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My fellow healthcare workers give me hell about riding motorcycles. I will relate to you what I say to them.

We generally see three different groups that come in from bike crashes. People that are drunk. 0.43 blood alcohol one time.
40-50 year olds with some disposable income that think bikes are cool so they buy a harley and crash it.
18-25 year olds that purchase an R1 as their first bike and crash it.
I then ask them when they last saw a pt that did not fit into one of the groups I just listed. That ends the conversation and the ridicule.
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Old 06-27-2013, 07:28 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chasssmash View Post
I definitely accept that these raw statistics do not tell the whole story and are definitely generalized.

In a way it's like smoking.Statistically it shortens your life but you can ameliorate it by being in great shape for example.

However I also don't think it makes sense just to say they are completely invalidated if you wear the proper gear or don't drink and ride.

For example I never drink and ride but I do ride in the Winter on ice and snow just to get to work. So while I decrease one risk I increase another.

Personally I like looking at statistics.The one that told me there is a 30 times greater chance of getting shot if you have a gun in your house influenced me to get rid of my guns. Despite the fact that I was careful with them I could clearly see that they posed a substantial risk to me and my kids, one way or another. Also the statistics on the dangers of swimming pools has changed the way I treat my pool. I almost had 2 kids drown in my pool over the years so for me at least the statistics had validity on their surface.

Another example is that I just bought a convertible to do chores with.Things I did exclusively on my bike.My main justification for this expense was that it would reduce my risk going everywhere on the bike. Basically I did cost/benefit analysis and if made sense to reduce my risk. Everyone has a free choice but I think it's good to know the odds either way
Protip: You may want to investigate the term confirmation bias and then take a statistics course before you make any more life choices based on statistics you read in the general media.
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Old 06-27-2013, 07:30 AM   #40
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Double tap
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Old 06-27-2013, 07:31 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulrn View Post
My fellow healthcare workers give me hell about riding motorcycles. I will relate to you what I say to them.

We generally see three different groups that come in from bike crashes. People that are drunk. 0.43 blood alcohol one time.
40-50 year olds with some disposable income that think bikes are cool so they buy a harley and crash it.
18-25 year olds that purchase an R1 as their first bike and crash it.
I then ask them when they last saw a pt that did not fit into one of the groups I just listed. That ends the conversation and the ridicule.
Yeah it seems to go that way,riders with many,many years of riding under their belt and have made it to their 30's/40's/50's and still ride all the time are WAY under represented in crash statistics.
No way to buy experience,but keeping an open mind and trying to learn can help. Some just buy a bike and figure it will work out,there's more to it then that.
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Old 06-27-2013, 07:35 AM   #42
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I hate statistics. If you have a crash, your chances of having a crash were 100 percent. If you didn't, who the fuck cares what they were?

Ride sober, ride within your limits and the limits of your machine, and don't ride like a fucking knob on public streets and you are ahead of the game. I take it further by not riding at night, and avoiding the interstates during rush hour.
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:26 AM   #43
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I justread a study where they proved statsticly... if you don't own a gun you are 100% less likely to be shot with your own gun.

Life is fatal, I'd rather die on my bike than slip away in a hospital after a long bout with some f'in disease.
Not that I'm any hurry to die mind you, I just fear not living more than dying.
YMMV
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:45 AM   #44
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As an ex-combatant in the war on Christmas, I am not 100% convinced the numbers are correct, but they are probably very close.
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:02 AM   #45
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It is interesting to see how many people want to ignore objective data so they can compartmentalize their own little worlds. It makes one wonder what other areas of science they are prepared to dismiss in order to convince themselves that they are making the best decisions. One must also wonder about their feelings regarding history, considering they only want to go off their own anecdotal experiences.

Still others, will rationalize, "I am not part of that statistical group (all motorbikers) because, I don't...[ride at night, drink and ride etc]." And why don't they engage in those behaviors? Because they know the statistics.

For me, statistical data is like any other objective information. It's nothing to be afraid of or hate or dismiss. I am happy to have it, because it allows me to assess the risks and act in ways to eliminate or minimize them. I am not saying that I don't combine this with my own experience and knowledge, just that I don't want to deny the data is relevant to me.

Why would people want to put their fingers in their ears and scream lalalalalala, when they could look at the data and use it to manage their risks. Yes, stats can be manipulated by someone to convince you of a false premise, but that's only if you don't understand statistics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuciferMutt View Post
I hate statistics. If you have a crash, your chances of having a crash were 100 percent.
The irony behind that statement is delicious, thanks.

BTW, Lucifer, statistics show that you'd be better off avoiding multi-lane surface streets during rush hour, rather than interstates.
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