ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > Racing
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-03-2013, 06:36 AM   #1261
geg OP
Canadian living in exile
 
geg's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: 41.655984,-71.302657
Oddometer: 6,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by car94 View Post
Racing is not about going all out! Its about being the best at everything. This includes Tire management, fuel management etc. You have to make it to the end and be the 1st one across the line. I would prefer to see better rubber but it is way better than when Slipstone and Micheloss would bring the wrong compound and half the field would be 10 seconds slower than the other half.
Racing is about being smooth and fast.
good points.... funny how no one complains about cars having to manage fuel....

and this just in:

Quote:

July 2nd, 2013 | Author: admin
Pirelli thought having their tyres explode without warning at the British Grand Prix would be a total chucklefest.
Speaking after the race where several of its products were reduced to flailing strips of rubber even more useless than the Mclaren one of them was attached to, the Italian manufacturer admitted it just getting a bit jaded with the whole going-a-whole-race-distance-with-fully-inflated-tyres thing.
Head of rubber and shit, Giorgio Treadio said, “we were just a bit bored to be honest with you. So we decided to put explosive charges in a random selection of tyres.”
Who shall we fuck up next?
“Then the guys had a sweepstake and whoever got the first car won the pot.”
“Plus we could all bet on how many we thought would go in total and that went to charity. It was a really fun family day: until everyone started moaning about people getting killed.”
Sunday’s event looked like being a finely balanced duel between the Mercedes of home favourite Lewis Hamilton and Red Bull’s Sebastian Vettel before the British driver’s left rear was the first to go, earning Darren Fleetwood 23 pounds in Waterstones book vouchers.
Subsequent tyre terror saw drivers spear off track at frightening speed, Fernando Alonso’s head nearly get taken off by Sergio Perez’ errant tread but Great Ormond Street Hospital gain a cheque for 39.80.
“It’s not every day a children’s hospital gets nearly 50 quid from a bunch of strangers so I think the death warning and boycotting stuff was a bit of an over-reaction, frankly, ” continued Treadio.
“I mean; so we lose a couple of F1 drivers. Have you ever *met* Nigel Mansell?”
“Exactly,” he added.

- See more at: http://www.pitflaps.co.uk/2013/07/ju....Eh5CRZaW.dpuf

__________________
Greg
Europe 2013 Europe 2012 Europe 2011 England 2010 Gaspe PQ 2008 Nova Scotia 2007

Try to see the world beyond your front door.
geg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 09:03 AM   #1262
geg OP
Canadian living in exile
 
geg's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: 41.655984,-71.302657
Oddometer: 6,036
tire swapping... and why teams do it

good article: LINK
__________________
Greg
Europe 2013 Europe 2012 Europe 2011 England 2010 Gaspe PQ 2008 Nova Scotia 2007

Try to see the world beyond your front door.
geg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 11:06 AM   #1263
wxwax
Excited Member
 
wxwax's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Oddometer: 72,235
Quote:
Originally Posted by geg View Post
good points.... funny how no one complains about cars having to manage fuel....

and this just in:
After the first pace car, Mercedes to Nico Rosberg he had too much fuel and needed to burn some off to avoid a weight problem.

Speaking of which, NBC's ineptitude extends to the race coverage, too. SPEED never once missed a restart. NBC managed to miss the vital last restart of the race. Somehow they filled all the safety car time with blather, then went to commercial for the restart. Never replayed it, either. Dolts.
__________________
Sid.

It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this.
-- Bertrand Russell

To make an apple pie from scratch,
you must first invent the universe.
-- Carl Sagan
wxwax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 11:10 AM   #1264
wxwax
Excited Member
 
wxwax's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Oddometer: 72,235
Mercedes are now thinking about keeping Ross Brawn around for another season, now that things are going well.

He wants to be there. And Paddy Lowe is making all the right noises. But Mercedes management is overstuffed at the moment with Toto Wolfe also trying to be team boss, although they're trying to make a virtue out of it.

A bit of a mess over there and I see Lauda's hand in trying to force Brawn out. Now that Mercedes are front of the grid his machinations look unproductive.
__________________
Sid.

It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this.
-- Bertrand Russell

To make an apple pie from scratch,
you must first invent the universe.
-- Carl Sagan
wxwax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 11:12 AM   #1265
Paebr332
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Location: Shippensburg, PA
Oddometer: 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by car94 View Post
See even Alotta Ferwhino Knows who's best!!
Oddly enough Vettel had NEVER won an F1 race that Alonso started ahead of him on the grid while Alonso has won four times after starting behind Vettel. That is one-eighth of Alonso's wins.

Vettel is almost unstoppable from the front row, but only meh once he drops out of the first two rows in qualifying. He only has four podium finished in races he started worse than 4th in. Alonso has WON races from as far back as 15th.
Paebr332 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 11:41 AM   #1266
markjenn
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Swellvue, WA
Oddometer: 10,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paebr332 View Post
Oddly enough Vettel had NEVER won an F1 race that Alonso started ahead of him on the grid while Alonso has won four times after starting behind Vettel. That is one-eighth of Alonso's wins.

Vettel is almost unstoppable from the front row, but only meh once he drops out of the first two rows in qualifying. He only has four podium finished in races he started worse than 4th in. Alonso has WON races from as far back as 15th.
These are interesting statistics, but one must always keep in mind the anomalies of sample size. The main reason Alonso has won more races from behind is because the Ferrari typically qualifies poorly and he has a lot more opportunities. Conversely, Vettel tends to qualify exceptionally well and thus has many fewer opportunities.

And you can look at it as Alonso typically having a competitive car, but doing a lousy job at qualifying, so he ends up with slower cars in front of him. Conversely, Vettel may do a much better job of maximizing his qualifying performance and thus when he is down the grid, he is surrounded by faster cars.

In the end, it is final results that matter and Vettel is getting better results.... period. (Believe me, I'm not a Vettel fan, but a spade is a spade.)

- Mark

markjenn screwed with this post 07-03-2013 at 11:47 AM
markjenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 12:08 PM   #1267
PeteN95
Beastly Adventurer
 
PeteN95's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Muk, WA
Oddometer: 2,453
This made me remember some of the stupid tire rules the FIA has tried in the past:

- Grooved tires?!?

- Not changing tires during an entire race weekend?!?!?! (ask Kimi!)

- and now the opposite, purposely fast degrading tires?!

This is working out about as well as when they tried to increase passing by making the cars narrower!?!
__________________
"If you ain't slidin', you ain't ridin'"

SVN/XRR/Christini
PeteN95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 12:19 PM   #1268
Paebr332
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Location: Shippensburg, PA
Oddometer: 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
These are interesting statistics, but one must always keep in mind the anomalies of sample size. The main reason Alonso has won more races from behind is because the Ferrari typically qualifies poorly and he has a lot more opportunities. Conversely, Vettel tends to qualify exceptionally well and thus has many fewer opportunities.

And you can look at it as Alonso typically having a competitive car, but doing a lousy job at qualifying, so he ends up with slower cars in front of him. Conversely, Vettel may do a much better job of maximizing his qualifying performance and thus when he is down the grid, he is surrounded by faster cars.

In the end, it is final results that matter and Vettel is getting better results.... period. (Believe me, I'm not a Vettel fan, but a spade is a spade.)

- Mark
I understand sample size and statistical validity. I understand that this is discrete ordinal data. I have a Minitab Project going with qualifying and race results going back to the start of 2008.

Statistically speaking Vettel has a mean qualifying to race finish position decline of 1.66 spots and this is significant at the 5% level. Alonso's mean finish position is statistically no different than his mean starting position. However, Alonso's median difference is a statisically significant 1 spot better, also at the 5% level.

In other words, there is statistical evidence that Alonso finishes better than he qualifies, while the opposite is true for Vettel.

Vettel has never won a race from outside the first or second row. Alonso has won races from the fourth, sixth and eighth row. Kimi and Button have won from the fourth row also. If Vettel cannot run away and hide from the front of the pack he becomes a non-factor. Several other drivers can win or contend from pretty far back in the pack.

Vettel is the PERFECT driver for the current RBR car and strategy running under the current rules. We will know a lot more about how good a driver he is next year with all the rule changes.
Paebr332 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 12:26 PM   #1269
markjenn
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Swellvue, WA
Oddometer: 10,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paebr332 View Post
In other words, there is statistical evidence that Alonso finishes better than he qualifies, while the opposite is true for Vettel.
You're statistics are stronger than mine, but I think you've done a good job summarizing what the say.

Again though, you can look at this two ways - that Alonso is a great driver in the race proper or that he is a lousy driver at qualifying.

- Mark
markjenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 01:05 PM   #1270
wxwax
Excited Member
 
wxwax's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Oddometer: 72,235
Without looking up his stats at Renault, I would say that it's a stretch to label Alonso as a bad qualifier.

It's obvious that he has never had a dominant car at Ferrari. His teammate, whom he routinely outqualifies, will testify to that.

Vettel has been driving the dominant car for the last 3-4 years. If he weren't winning, he would deserve to be fired. I don't know what the car/driver ratio is, but it's got to be 80% car, if not more.

I accept that Vettel is a splendid driver. I also believe that the Red Bull's engine and design do not lend themselves to overtaking and winning from behind. They don't have the top end speed of a Force India or a Ferrari, and most passing is done in DRS zones. DRS doesn't seem to help the Red Bull as much as it does other cars. I find this highly amusing.

The Red Bull loves clean air and fast corners, where it can set fast laps and sprint off to large leads. It is a machine built for qualifying and racing from the front.

I believe all of the above to be true. And none of it indicates that Alonso is a bad qualifier.
__________________
Sid.

It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this.
-- Bertrand Russell

To make an apple pie from scratch,
you must first invent the universe.
-- Carl Sagan
wxwax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 01:25 PM   #1271
PeteN95
Beastly Adventurer
 
PeteN95's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Muk, WA
Oddometer: 2,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paebr332 View Post
Statistically speaking Vettel has a mean qualifying to race finish position decline of 1.66 spots and this is significant at the 5% level. Alonso's mean finish position is statistically no different than his mean starting position. However, Alonso's median difference is a statisically significant 1 spot better, also at the 5% level.
Besides the fact that statistics can be used to show almost anything, how would Senna's stats compare to Vettel's? I tend to think Senna would look much worse, but he was probably the greatest qualifier to ever live. I think your stats show Vettel is pretty good too, Alonso, not so much.
__________________
"If you ain't slidin', you ain't ridin'"

SVN/XRR/Christini
PeteN95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 01:40 PM   #1272
wxwax
Excited Member
 
wxwax's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Oddometer: 72,235
In 2004 Alonso won 6 poles. In 2005 Alonso won 6 poles.

Both seasons, going against the Ferrari machines of Schumi, Brawn and Todt.

You'll never convince me he's a poor qualifying driver. It's the car, not the driver.
__________________
Sid.

It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this.
-- Bertrand Russell

To make an apple pie from scratch,
you must first invent the universe.
-- Carl Sagan
wxwax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 02:16 PM   #1273
Paebr332
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Location: Shippensburg, PA
Oddometer: 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteN95 View Post
Besides the fact that statistics can be used to show almost anything, how would Senna's stats compare to Vettel's? I tend to think Senna would look much worse, but he was probably the greatest qualifier to ever live. I think your stats show Vettel is pretty good too, Alonso, not so much.
Statistics can only mislead those who do not understand statistics. I am curious how you concluded my statistics show Alonso to be not so good a driver?
Paebr332 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 02:25 PM   #1274
Paebr332
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Location: Shippensburg, PA
Oddometer: 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by wxwax View Post
Without looking up his stats at Renault, I would say that it's a stretch to label Alonso as a bad qualifier.

It's obvious that he has never had a dominant car at Ferrari. His teammate, whom he routinely outqualifies, will testify to that.

Vettel has been driving the dominant car for the last 3-4 years. If he weren't winning, he would deserve to be fired. I don't know what the car/driver ratio is, but it's got to be 80% car, if not more.

I accept that Vettel is a splendid driver. I also believe that the Red Bull's engine and design do not lend themselves to overtaking and winning from behind. They don't have the top end speed of a Force India or a Ferrari, and most passing is done in DRS zones. DRS doesn't seem to help the Red Bull as much as it does other cars. I find this highly amusing.

The Red Bull loves clean air and fast corners, where it can set fast laps and sprint off to large leads. It is a machine built for qualifying and racing from the front.

I believe all of the above to be true. And none of it indicates that Alonso is a bad qualifier.
To add some support to your theory, Webber's 9 wins at RBR have all come from row one starts. So 37 of 38 RBR wins came from the front row and one from the second row.
Paebr332 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 02:40 PM   #1275
markjenn
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Swellvue, WA
Oddometer: 10,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by wxwax View Post
You'll never convince me he's a poor qualifying driver. It's the car, not the driver.
Only to the extent that in F1, it is almost always more about the car than the driver. To the extent that the driver matters in F1 (which is not much overall), I think you do have to ping Alonso for poor qualifying, at least compared to Vettel.

- Mark
markjenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 09:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014