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Old 07-05-2013, 05:43 PM   #901
SOLO LOBO OP
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So.. yesterday I pulled off the headlight/instrument bucket (serious PITA), and handlebars/risers... wacked the top triple (after backing off the 6 top triple clamp and center bolt) and re-torqued the center bolt.

I'm sure there wasn't enough pre-load before, and it is better now.

Went out this morning and ride about 130 miles, 25 or so if that out was in the same area as beardthrone's recent video... tons of good deep potholes and deep puddles I aimed right for

On the way out there is speed limit is 70. On the way out I had the same weave, but much less. On the way home I was running about 75 with very little weaving.


Better overall.

Still have some pogoing, and not sure the forks are adjusted to be right where I want them... I need to call Konflict and see what they advise.

Still need to have the wheel trued, but not sure how to get that done before the national.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagehand
your bike is suitably dirty. Well done.
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Old 07-05-2013, 06:18 PM   #902
ontic
 
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Good news Gage,
improvement is good, but lacking a complete solution there seems to be more factors at play.
What did you torque those bearings to?
Maybe your wheel is just too out of balance/true and it was that which was making the effects of too little preload on the bearings so apparent? Could be other things as well of course but I like to try to keep things simple

Something actually too loose like steering head bearings (or maybe wheel bearings but that would have been hard to miss) seemed more likely to me because of how you could set the wobbles off at different speeds.

I'm not a huge fan of that KTM described method of undoing the top triple pinch bolts and belting the top triple down... with the bike on the centrestand and the front end hanging it means you are trying lift the whole front end up when you torque the stem nut- and also that any wacking you do on the top triple to get it down is also fighting this weight which wants to push it straight back up. To me that method is asking for loose bearings or at least a much more unpredictable preload.

If you undo the bottom triple fork tube pinch bolts instead (leaving top ones tight), then the weight of the front end is fully supported by the the top triple and the bearing it is sitting on, then you can (undo the blind nut pinch bolt) torque the top nut and tap the bottom triple up and there is very little force that is trying to counter it. All you are doing here is pulling the stem and lower triple and bearing up, tapping up on this triple makes sure there is no binding on the fork tubes and basic friction on fork tubes and the stem on the top bearing should ensure that it doesn't want to slide back down.


How much are wheels on ebay there? I think I'd be raiding the penny jar and taking a punt on another wheel (and recouping most of the cost back after the national by selling your current wheel on to the next poor bastid).
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Old 07-05-2013, 06:36 PM   #903
One Less Harley
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I hope you find that wobble, those things are bad. For curiosities sake does it wobble when the bags are off?? Make sure that rim isn't bent and true it up!!!

what about the rear SAG numbers??? a squat rear might cause problems.
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:56 PM   #904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ontic View Post
What did you torque those bearings to?
No measured torque, just until the bars fall slowly to the side from center with a light push... before they fell quickly with no push

Quote:
Originally Posted by ontic View Post
Maybe your wheel is just too out of balance/true and it was that which was making the effects of too little preload on the bearings so apparent? Could be other things as well of course but I like to try to keep things simple
I am thinking (hoping) the wheel is having some effect as well...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ontic View Post
it means you are trying lift the whole front end up when you torque the stem nut- and also that any wacking you do on the top triple to get it down is also fighting this weight
I thought this as well, and removed the front tire and braced under the fender with a 2X4 that was lifting the front end and taking all the weight from the mallet blows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ontic View Post
If you undo the bottom triple fork tube pinch bolts instead (leaving top ones tight), then the weight of the front end is fully supported by the the top triple and the bearing it is sitting on, then you can (undo the blind nut pinch bolt) torque the top nut and tap the bottom triple up
Maybe next time...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ontic View Post
How much are wheels on ebay there? I think I'd be raiding the penny jar and taking a punt on another wheel (and recouping most of the cost back after the national by selling your current wheel on to the next poor bastid).
Well, I have this feeling that any 10+ year old KTM wheel is going to have issues of one kind or another since they were all on dirtbikes (17mm axle).

I think I will just pop for a new wheel and spokes on my hub, from Woody's, this winter. No idea what that would cost yet.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagehand
your bike is suitably dirty. Well done.
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Old 07-07-2013, 08:13 PM   #905
ontic
 
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Quote:
No measured torque, just until the bars fall slowly to the side from center with a light push... before they fell quickly with no push
My inner scientist weeps Definitely sounded like they were falling too quick and fast before. Bouncing off the stops or not (or how many times) once the turning bars hits them is another test I have heard mentioned.
But, there is so much room for user and bike error and with this time tested technique.
I love our ability now to just be able to torque to a figure and take the guessing game and variables out of it.... I just want to compare my apple to some more apples...

Quote:
Well, I have this feeling that any 10+ year old KTM wheel is going to have issues of one kind or another since they were all on dirtbikes (17mm axle).

I think I will just pop for a new wheel and spokes on my hub, from Woody's, this winter. No idea what that would cost yet.
You might be right about the old wheels. There has to be a few good ones around though... Our ebay is pretty fickle and you have to watch and wait. Wreckers want $400 or so for a wheel, but private sellers can be less than a $100.
I guess I got pretty lucky with mine (@$150) while it shows its 10+ years with a bit of corrosion on the spokes it is nice and straight.
A while back I also got a nice new unused 17mm hub for cheap on german ebay with the intention of eventually putting a 19" rim on it so I can have two sets of wheels/tires, some decent dual purpose for road and touring using my new G/S rear wheel, and some proper aggressive knobbies for fun in the dirt using my old beat up and bent G/S rear.

Typing this reminded me and I just found a nice 19" excel rim on ebay to bid on...
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Old 07-10-2013, 03:12 AM   #906
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Euro or Jap laced wheels...

regarding the title, a new subject for us.

Has anyone here figured out our hub/spoke/rim situation?
It seems to me that we or I at least have a Jap laced front wheel (rather than a Euro one as a 'KTM' wheel might lead one to assume)

Have a look at this post by Woody,
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...&postcount=621
and then check your KTM front wheel if you have one...
I've done a bit of googling and it seems there are some KTMs that came with Jap laced wheels, often front wheel only but I cannot find much info about our front ends.

I'm trying to figure this out because (as part of the greater plan of finishing my G/S and selling the R90 and cutting down to one bike in this country that can do double duty) I have been gathering parts to build a 19" front wheel for this front end to go with my new G/S rear wheel so I can have two sets of tyres, agressive knobbies for the 21" and a more road oriented dual purpose for the 19".

I've got a brand new 17mm axle KTM hub, just like the one that comes on my current KTM front wheel. Don't know how to tell if this bare hub is Jap or Euro, but I am hoping it is Jap like the one on my bike.
I've just bought a new unused 19" 1.85 36H Jap indexed Excel rim (originally intended as a rear rim for Jap bikes) and I hoping I can stitch it all together.
I've been trolling ebay for a while trying to get these parts cheap so with hub and rim only have less than $100 in it so far so shouldn't loose out if it doesn't work out.
Rim will get here soon and then I need to figure out spokes... or maybe give up and pass it onto a wheel builder.

Anywyay,
the question is- how is your KTM front wheel from a WP50 set of forks laced?
Is Japanese the norm?
As R-dubb saw in this thread ordering the wrong rim can be kinda annoying!
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Old 07-10-2013, 06:33 AM   #907
Airhead Wrangler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ontic View Post
Is Japanese the norm?
I can't answer the question, but KTM has used several different sources of rims over the years DID, Excel (both japanese) as well as Behr (euro) and maybe others. Maybe that has something to do with it.
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:47 AM   #908
Ras Thurlo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ontic View Post
Has anyone here figured out our hub/spoke/rim situation?
in case this helps, these are photos of a WP50 front hub (Talon repro) and excel 21" wheel

[IMG][/IMG]



[IMG] photo talon2_zps4e082ee0.jpg[/IMG]
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:58 AM   #909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhead Wrangler View Post
I can't answer the question, but KTM has used several different sources of rims over the years DID, Excel (both japanese) as well as Behr (euro) and maybe others. Maybe that has something to do with it.
You are probably right but it does seem a bit odd at times especially with descriptions of a few bikes coming with front and rears laced in different patterns..
Excel will provide them in either pattern, though I am not sure about the other manufacturers.

My current 21" rim is a DID and Japanese pattern. It is perfectly straight but a little old and weathered.
A while ago (before realising about this difference in spoke patterns on KTMs) I scored a basically new "KTM" excel Al7 21" rim on ebay. I didn't really need it but it was just one of those ebay buys you put a very low snipe on and don't think you will win. After winning it I figured that once I got a bit more confident lacing wheels it would one day replace this old DID... not so sure it is going to work out now. Where my Jap pattern Excel is marked with a J in front of the size, this Al7 one is marked with an N.
Not sure what N means....

Anyway, it was an interesting lesson for me and I'm just glad I am learning it through buying cheap barely used stuff rather than brand new and expensive stuff.

I still wanna hear what pattern the other KTM wheels from WP50 front ends are laced in?

Ras, do you have a photo of that wheel from the other side? I can't quite tell what spoke is going where from the side shown...

And I have no idea what spokes to get yet for this 19" wheel.

Does anyone know of any KTMs with the same style hub (even if different axle size) that came with a 19 inch front wheel? Just trying to get a start on lengths and part numbers in fisches to see what might work.
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:06 AM   #910
Airhead Wrangler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ontic View Post
Excel will provide them in either pattern, though I am not sure about the other manufacturers.
As far as I know, Excel just provides the dimpled rim with the dimples evenly spaced (non-specific to any lacing pattern) and undrilled. Whoever builds the wheel will drill the dimples at the correct angle for the lacing pattern they plan to use.
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:25 AM   #911
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As far as I seem to have absorbed Excel sell drilled and un-drilled rims. Drilled in Euro and Japanese patterns and usually stamped as being so, being what is typically available to the consumer from rim/parts retailers (who are just selling a product shipped from the suppliers/manufacturers), and then they also sell un-drilled rims for specialists and wheel builders (Buchanans etc) and such...

Saying all that, I really don't know.
When almost all their other wheels are Euro pattern, I am still surprised about having a japanese pattern on my KTM wheel in the first place.
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:40 AM   #912
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When I was playing around with the springs in the stock forks I would get wicked speed wobbles with not enough sag. But every where else the suspension felt "good". I was going by what race tech and others were saying how much it should be. But they were going off a standard 1981 airhead. The R/T springs were too short and I made the difference up with shims but could not lower the sag because of it.

What I found was the inch or two that it was off was enough to throw the geometry of the bike off. The front was sitting higher than it should be.

I would double check the measurements compared to stock. Maybe raise the forks a tad in the triples so you have a bit more fork sticking up through the top clamp? Gassed up. and no fuel with that tanker. Also, the forks seemed to pogo a bit, or bounce. I found that slowing the rebound a tad cured that. On the stock forks I used Mobil 1 synthetic ATF (thicker) for fluid.

It really doesn't take much to throw off the geometry on the G/S. If load it up to tour (not much I may add) I MUST reset the sag on the rear shock or it is an absolute terror to ride. Starts to wobble real bad at high way speeds.
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:38 PM   #913
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Apologies to airhead wrangle as I posted this in his unholy thread by mistake this morning...


Hyperpro is doing suspension evaluations here at the national really and looked aver my G/S. The front suspension has enough friction that small pushes down on the handlebars actually has no effect on the front at all and makes the (undesprung) rear shock bounce.

The tech told me the stiction is common to these forks and suggested replacing the seals with one from from SFK, which are apparently very low drag seals. He also thought the springs may be too soft as well.

The low speed damping on my rear Ohlins isn't working and the spring needs more preload at best and a stiffer spring at worst. The shock will require a rebuild to deal with the lack of low speed damping.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagehand
your bike is suitably dirty. Well done.

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Old 07-19-2013, 05:21 PM   #914
Airhead Wrangler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLO LOBO View Post
Apologies to airhead wrangle as I posted this in his unholy thread by mistake this morning...

Pfffff. Like I care. Did you get new bushings as part of your recent rebuild? They can get fine metal particles embedded in them and get quite frictiony as they get older. Wish I could be at the MOA rally.
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Old 07-19-2013, 06:28 PM   #915
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Originally Posted by Airhead Wrangler View Post
Pfffff. Like I care. Did you get new bushings as part of your recent rebuild? They can get fine metal particles embedded in them and get quite frictiony as they get older. Wish I could be at the MOA rally.

No new bushes. I'll call Konflict when I get back. No doubt they need some more work.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagehand
your bike is suitably dirty. Well done.
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