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Old 07-29-2013, 11:19 AM   #31
DesertSurfer
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Agree and Disagree...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomad guy View Post
One needs to remember that the "Adventure" segment is mainly a genius marketing branding tool that makes us keep spending our money... What you are seeing are trends dictated by the marketing departments.
The adventure is in your head not with our constant chase for the perfect "Adventure" bike and the perfect "Adventure" gear.
I so totally agree with your last line...spoken perfectly. Yet, completely disagree with your first.

Adventure is not an ad marketing creation AT ALL. This travel concept is very "Old World"... pack up a raincover, gunnysack and some jerky... and go explore the world.

Modern international marketing now simply affords us MANY choices... " Would you like it small, medium or SUPERSIZED"? And with choice, often times comes indecision.

Getting back to your best point... Make the best out of what you've got!

A tall person may walk further, a short person may walk less... yet the one who finds the most challenging experience is only the one who longs for it.
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:38 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by DesertSurfer View Post
I so totally agree with your last line...spoken perfectly. Yet, completely disagree with your first.

Adventure is not an ad marketing creation AT ALL. This travel concept is very "Old World"... pack up a raincover, gunnysack and some jerky... and go explore the world.

Modern international marketing now simply affords us MANY choices... " Would you like it small, medium or SUPERSIZED"? And with choice, often times comes indecision.

Getting back to your best point... Make the best out of what you've got!

A tall person may walk further, a short person may walk less... yet the one who finds the most challenging experience is only the one who longs for it.
IMO, the HUGE ADV phenom over the last 10 to 12 years comes from a variety of sources ... which, when blended together, have brought us to where we are now.

You have to count this very site ... ADV RIDER ... for being a Prime Mover in the whole thing. But pioneers were there earlier ... add guys like Ted Simon, Helge Pederson, Austin Vince ... and many others who have used both Books and Movies to inspire us.

As far a OEM's go ...you have to give credit to BMW for pushing the ADV theme before anyone else (since 1981) ... and hooking their Dakar cred and using it to Market Dreams to millions.

The main stream Moto Media have been (unsurprisingly) VERY LATE in coming to this game ... and so were most of other OEM's. Companies like Suzuki and Honda both had ample opportunity to jump on the ADV band wagon early. They did not.

Main stream magazines let years go by before ever featuring travel bikes and travelers. ADV Rider and Horizon's Unlimited have to be counted as two major influences to both riders AND to Media. Magazines learned what was going on via ADV Rider and HU. Now, it's all the rage. But to them, just a fad that will fade away.

It won't, IMO. It's becoming a lifestyle, way of life and a direction for retirement for millions of riders.

For KTM the transition to the ADV theme was easy. With Dakar victories and solid off road racing history ... their marketing direction was clear.
KTM are lucky indeed that not one of the BIG FOUR chose to enter this arena. Had they done so ... KTM would have been Blown Up before they ever got started.

You can be sure ... this was well known by the big four .... the Japanese need KTM, Husky and BMW badly. These small, innovative companies keep the overall market healthy and thriving and do things the Japanese are afraid to do. This innovation ... and risk taking, of course benefits the Japanese too. The Japanese are JUST NOW beginning to toy in the ADV area ... ten years behind and several billion Yen short. IMHO!

Lots of aftermarket guys have jumped in on this ... and plenty have become zilliionares as a result. But how far can they go without innovative new bikes from KTM, BMW, Husky ... and hopefully, someday ... the Japanese companies?

KTM are going there ... look at the new 390. But will Bajaj continue to head in a positive direction? I have my doubts.
Husky? Total mystery at this point. BMW? They are OUT! Going GREEN.
Honda too ... look to be going GREEN. Look for the most amazing All Electric off road bikes in the near future from mass producers.
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:59 PM   #33
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there's such a variety of "adventure" bikes because everyone's idea of "adventure" is different. to some it's crossing the world or large chunks of it. to some it's just going down a road they don't know and finding out where it comes out. Some its gravel roads, some want single track.

Most of my friends have gravitated towards smaller bikes the past few years, mostly WR250r with some well placed mods. But that's for some trips they were doing out west. They would trailer out and ride the fun stuff on the WRs and had a blast.

The big advantage for some is having the right bike for the right type of riding you want to do. When friends ask me for bike advice, my first question is who will you be riding with? what bikes do they have? that's the direction to follow. because if you want to ride with them, they want to ride stuff that's appropriate for their bike. if they have KLR's don't buy a KTM 500 you'll only get frustrated on the paved or smooth gravel roads the KLR's are wanting to ride. If they have KTM 500's don't buy a KLR as you will be miserable riding single track and picking up your KLR.

everyone has touched on what they feel is important to the buyer- comfort for long range, ease of maintanance, durability, ability to find parts in other parts of the world, handling, weight, seat height, fuel range, etc. etc. etc. The list is endless. that's why there are so many "adv" bikes out there. something for everyone. I have a tagged 450 and it's fun in the right environment but when few DS rides I did I hated. 5% of fun stuff on the 450, 90% boring riding. I had to do stuff to make it fun. I've also been on rides with people on everything from a 200 to a 1200. everyone had fun, just some liked different parts of the ride differently. :)

Now that I have a 950, it makes those rides fun again. the smooth stuff is easy to ride, but the middle ground is more fun, and the 5% stuff is even still fun (for me!). after riding the past two weekends, I think it's the best of both worlds. I won't take it down super technical singletrack but just about anywhere my friend will take his 690 I'll take my SE, but the pavement portions of the ride are probably more fun for me. Even on some tight twisty roads this past weekend, it almost felt like a decent SM (minus the trail braking on knobbies).

different strokes for different folks...
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Old 07-29-2013, 02:34 PM   #34
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
IMO, the HUGE ADV phenom over the last 10 to 12 years comes from a variety of sources ... which, when blended together, have brought us to where we are now.

You have to count this very site ... ADV RIDER ... for being a Prime Mover in the whole thing. But pioneers were there earlier ... add guys like Ted Simon, Helge Pederson, Austin Vince ... and many others who have used both Books and Movies to inspire us.

As far a OEM's go ...you have to give credit to BMW for pushing the ADV theme before anyone else (since 1981) ... and hooking their Dakar cred and using it to Market Dreams to millions.

The main stream Moto Media have been (unsurprisingly) VERY LATE in coming to this game ... and so were most of other OEM's. Companies like Suzuki and Honda both had ample opportunity to jump on the ADV band wagon early. They did not.

Main stream magazines let years go by before ever featuring travel bikes and travelers. ADV Rider and Horizon's Unlimited have to be counted as two major influences to both riders AND to Media. Magazines learned what was going on via ADV Rider and HU. Now, it's all the rage. But to them, just a fad that will fade away.

It won't, IMO. It's becoming a lifestyle, way of life and a direction for retirement for millions of riders.

For KTM the transition to the ADV theme was easy. With Dakar victories and solid off road racing history ... their marketing direction was clear.
KTM are lucky indeed that not one of the BIG FOUR chose to enter this arena. Had they done so ... KTM would have been Blown Up before they ever got started.

You can be sure ... this was well known by the big four .... the Japanese need KTM, Husky and BMW badly. These small, innovative companies keep the overall market healthy and thriving and do things the Japanese are afraid to do. This innovation ... and risk taking, of course benefits the Japanese too. The Japanese are JUST NOW beginning to toy in the ADV area ... ten years behind and several billion Yen short. IMHO!

Lots of aftermarket guys have jumped in on this ... and plenty have become zilliionares as a result. But how far can they go without innovative new bikes from KTM, BMW, Husky ... and hopefully, someday ... the Japanese companies?

KTM are going there ... look at the new 390. But will Bajaj continue to head in a positive direction? I have my doubts.
Husky? Total mystery at this point. BMW? They are OUT! Going GREEN.
Honda too ... look to be going GREEN. Look for the most amazing All Electric off road bikes in the near future from mass producers.
More on point is the constant debate between single vs. twin as adventure bikes...and their inherent properties.

No doubt a discussion our grandfathers had when creating early scramblers. And the Japanese jumped in with their retro scramblers in the early 70's... an homage to the 60's bikes.

The advent of the Dakar certainly glorified what many extreme adventure riders already were lusting after exploring the African Continent.

The US market was so fixated on MX, Strret bikes or Cruisers their just wasn't any attention paid to adventure bike options.

And the US DOT places such high costs for "stamps of approvals"... I think it's a million US dollars or more per manufacture model. Honda simply couldn't make up those costs on the Transalp in '88 and '89. to warrant importing the Africa Twin, as those bikes sat unnoticed.

Cycle World and Jimmy Lewis wrote adventure articles to somewhat def ears in the 90's, as Jimmy documented his Dakar campaigns.

The manufacturers and magazine press aren't the ones lagging here... It's our US government beauracracy... as well as the tunnel vision approach of the buying public.

Finally we now have an aware buying public, who also appreciates choices.

And we also have ATGATT options.

Hell, I can remember when I had to import an Italian Biefe helmet to have a pull down visor. Now there are a million options.

I say let the adventure floodgates open. We'll all be the better for it... for wanting small, medium or Super 1190 sized.
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Old 07-29-2013, 03:43 PM   #35
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People with the money to buy a mid-size adv bike pretty much all live where there are good roads and less trails, because they likely have a good job that requires all that infrastructure. Yes America/W.Europe have trails, but you don't need to use them. Unfortunately there aren't enough people in these places who actually ride to the places a mid-size adv should be ridden to sell enough to make one, because that would take a month or two riding to Africa or S.America, which means losing the sweet job that paid for it. So no demand.

The day that people in Africa have $10000 burning a hole in their pocket is the day you'll be able to buy a decent mid-size adventure bike. And that day will likely be about two decades after the Chinese have paved most of Africa, so they'll just want a GS anyway.

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Old 07-29-2013, 03:56 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangecicle View Post
Had another thought on this topic. I was watching a photographer a bit ago taking pictures of a balloon race. The guy had the best of equipment, but it was all the latest Nikon stuff -- very heavy. He kept looking at me and my Fuji X-Pro1 -- a mirrorless "gizmo" that harkens back to the Leica that once was -- little small cameras that just worked.


We probably got very similar shots, but when I got home, my back didn't hurt.
Look at the pixelation on those balloons! You must have a very low res camera (the background looks nice though).
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:15 PM   #37
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Great discussion!!
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:52 PM   #38
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@ADV Grifter: for the most part I agree with what you say about larger adv bikes. I just recently completed the Great Divide ride (2200 miles in 6 days) with 2 friends on 990s---with me on my GSA wishing I was on a KTM...the only problem with the 990s was they kept running out of fuel and my GSA became the tanker.. It's ironic since I learned the same lesson the summer I completed the Alcan 5000.

So now I've got the 690 and I feel it would be even more fun to do that trip from Montana to New Mexico again. In preparation, I have developed a unique fuel system that will give my 690 a 300 mile fuel range. My design includes an integrated rack to tie down all my gear: tent, Giant Loop bag, and Rotopak water tank...all the while retaining the passenger foot pegs for around the town trips with the wife.

I can only hope that KTM starts downsizing their V Twins to have a small light weight bike combined with the power and smoothness of their V Twins.
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:01 PM   #39
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I have owned several 650 class bikes, still have a GS, and decided after all my research that the best bang for the buck mid sized adventure bike was the KTM 640 Adventure, it had the large tank stock, suitable sub frame, great suspension travel and you can still find a later year model at a reasonable price. You can really deak one out and pay for some trips for the cost of a 690 and all the parts to make it comparable to the 640.

Ok the 690 is FI but is a carb really a bad thing when your adventure traveling or world traveling?
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Old 07-29-2013, 07:33 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by jrozar View Post
I have owned several 650 class bikes, still have a GS, and decided after all my research that the best bang for the buck mid sized adventure bike was the KTM 640 Adventure, it had the large tank stock, suitable sub frame, great suspension travel and you can still find a later year model at a reasonable price. You can really deak one out and pay for some trips for the cost of a 690 and all the parts to make it comparable to the 640.

Ok the 690 is FI but is a carb really a bad thing when your adventure traveling or world traveling?
I find that FI is not much of a failure item, but seems to allow consistent running conditions in all environments. The two 640's shook themselves apart
On the Alcan 5000 " the engines blue up" but they were hard to keep up with while they held together!

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Old 08-01-2013, 01:25 PM   #41
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No nothing like that at all, it will be a KTM so orange, and its going to be a v twin, apparently due to go on show 2014 some time ?


Quote:
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Something like this?

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Old 08-01-2013, 01:39 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by salvadorfrieri View Post
Something like this?

The bike weight is a shocking 215kg which is to heavy.

Why are modern adv bike getting taller and taller seats and even fatter.
Take the 12 gs it's about 260kg then add all the kit ect and be close to 300kg which is crap for a rtw trip.

The 990adv is about 200ish kg and has. Ok seat height
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Old 08-01-2013, 05:15 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by orangebear View Post
The bike weight is a shocking 215kg which is to heavy.

Why are modern adv bike getting taller and taller seats and even fatter.
Take the 12 gs it's about 260kg then add all the kit ect and be close to 300kg which is crap for a rtw trip.

The 990adv is about 200ish kg and has. Ok seat height
I agree ... they ALL just keep getting bigger, widder, taller (Yam Ten, BMWGS, Tiger 1200) If you talk to Actual owners ... who have weighed their 990's and 950's on proper scales you'll find a BIG GAP between KTM's claimed dry weight and real on the road weight.

Consensus for the 950/990 Wet weight for a somewhat farkled (no bags or racks) 990/950 seems to typically run around 525 lbs. (238 kgs.)

A multi bike test from 2011 of the 990 ADV Dakar with bags had the weight at 573 lbs. (269 kgs.)
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/176/11...omparison.aspx

The BMW true wet weight is also higher than the quoted weight BMW provides. I'd guess true wet weight is around 520 lbs. (236 kgs.)

I just read a review of the new 2014 BMW F800GS ADV. The way the guy talked you'd think he was riding a world class Enduro bike. The Test was held in Moab, Utah. All I can think is BMW carefully avoided the more treacherous tracks out there and stuck to mostly roads!

The guy never once mentioned weight or loss of control in technical riding. Having ridden the LIGHTER weight original F800GS ... I can tell you that when the track goes steeply UP or DOWN ... that fooker is a handful. The reviewer must ride as well as David Knight ... or ... more likely is totally full of shit!

I've ridden the 950 off road briefly ... and was delighted how GOOD it was for such a monster. (too tall for me, but I loved it) Can't say the same for F800GS. Oddly, BMW did not correct any of the major shortcomings of the F800GS on this new ADV version. Same crap suspension that SO MANY complain about. No engines changes. No mention of the problematic fuel pumps and filters so sensitive to Ethanol fuel and water.
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Old 08-01-2013, 05:22 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
A multi bike test from 2011 of the 990 ADV Dakar with bags had the weight at 573 lbs. (269 kgs.)
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/176/11...omparison.aspx
I chucked mine on the scales last week in travel mode 300kgs.

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Old 08-01-2013, 06:14 PM   #45
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I don't hear anybody saying on this thread that they want a 1400 bigger bike. They want a smaller, smoother bike.

Here is a quote I read today from Noah RTW thread in Ride Reports....

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...nduro&page=121


Originally Posted by travelingaustralian
Just been catching up on your RR. Looks like your having a great time!.
How has the bike been going? The only reason I ask is I've been laid up with a back injury. Been reading through some old RR's that I enjoyed years back while I'm on the mend.
Fishfunds RR 25,000miles with Luke and Nick. He had some problems with the bike that kept on popping up. How has it been for you? Just interested as it now has plenty ok Km's on it and is what ill be riding on my RTW.
Anyway keep up the great report and enjoy the company


I post all the problems I have in this ride report. I have nothing to hide. KTM is not sponsoring me to ride this bike or to post this ride report.

In my opinion, there is no better RTW bike than the 690. It is reliable. It is durable. It is efficient. It is powerful. It is easy to work on. It is easy to ride. It carries what I need. It has a 500 km fuel range. and at the end of the day, IT IS FUN TO RIDE. It is rare you will see me without a smile. My comfortable cruising speed here in Mongolia is not slow. I keep her serviced and I ride her hard. I would challenge anyone to put a KLR (for some reason this is the one people tell me I should have) through what this 690 has done. It might make it?.. but you and the bike will not have as much fun as Katriana and I have had.


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