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Old 07-26-2013, 04:03 PM   #256
FJ_Kevin OP
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Saturdays results continued...

OK, lets see if we can continue on a bit.

We arrived at the track pretty early Sat morning as I still had to sign up and go through tech inspection. The problem was I didn't sleep very well on Friday night. After viewing the track on Friday, I had my doubts!

Here is a photo looking over the edge of gravity cavity. It looks even more challenging in real life! How fast should a 50+ year old guy go up that thing?



I didn't eat well at breakfast and knew had some concerns about the day ahead. I remember looking at her across the table. Her lips were moving but as I was so preoccupied with what was coming, I really didn't hear anything she was saying (and I'm usually so attentive ).

Here are a few Sat morning photos (found on the net) capturing the riders meeting. You can see it was a very nice day. Temps were good too. And the track was in nice condition as it had rained on and off during the week.









And a couple more of gravity cavity,





With practice getting ready to start, I headed back to the unlock the bikes and unload them from the truck. And here is where I made a real a$$ of myself. It turned out that I had left the key to the lock back at the hotel, aahhrrr!

By the time I got the key and made it back to the track, practice was over! Another self inflicted wound!

Rather than letting this ruin my day, I decided that the promoters race would be my practice session. This sounds bad I know.

But it turned out that due to delays, the promoters race started very late with the sun very low in the sky.
In fact, the sun so blinding in some places that my speed was held down simply because I could see where I was going, even more so than not knowing the track I think.

And did I mention that I fell down ?

Ah well, lets have a look at the pictures anyway...

Here is #640 against the fence at Unadilla, it has come a long way from the start of this thread don't you think?



Next is the staging area where we are waiting to be called to the gate. This is also another good view of the pits. See the Paul Buckley flag at the left? Paul is famous for many classic MX photos you see in magazines and elsewhere. He even took a couple of me!



Here some Gran Prix rider wannabe heads to the gate, you can see how long the shadows are. And number 7 there on the Maico. We will see more of him in Sunday's race!



Not a great start, I am sitting in 7th into the 3rd turn.



And around we go!



Paul Buckley snapped this photo at end of lap one. I remember this, sun was blinding here, gas is totally off.



Into gravity cavity, I think I am about 5th now and will soon be falling down!



It was after the right hander in the distance that I crossed wheels in the deep ruts and dumped it.

Haha, in a moment of clarity, and as I scrambled to get off the track, I heard the announcer call my name "The fallen rider from Maryland is...".

But I was able to get up and get going again thus allowing Paul to get one more shot of me .



OK, so the results weren't great but I did get some track time. And it went a very long way in shaking off the jitters I was feeling! There was one concern however, I was feeling clutch slip again.

Next up is Sunday's AHRMA race. Now that's a story ...
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FJ_Kevin screwed with this post 07-26-2013 at 06:52 PM
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:49 PM   #257
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Great pics and story Kevin, that looks like fun, I have to go next year!

What is the source of that repop LOP Jersey? I saw one from a guy in France a while back but can't find it now.
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Old 07-26-2013, 08:54 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FJ_Kevin View Post
But it turned out that due to delays, the promoters race started very late with the sun very low in the sky.
In fact, the sun so blinding in some places that my speed was held down simply because I could see where I was going, even more so than not knowing the track I think.
Nice bike! I used to have a 1980 YZ250 that was similar, but with less power obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FJ_Kevin View Post
I was warned to watch out for these guys…



… but they didn’t seem to be there this year !
We were there.

That's me in that picture above in 1982 and I was in the class right after you this year.

This year I was on a 1988 CR500



That was a great weekend, right?
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:01 PM   #259
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rolf sweden yamaha

Hi. Did you do more about jettings on the carburator? Have a 465 and have some small problems. Send all info about ignition and jettings. Thank you guys.

I finally got around to timing my 465G. On the bike's maiden voyage, the motor ran fine down low but once in the midrange or higher it rattled and clanked something awful. It also, required 20+ kicks to get fired up hot or cold. So I really didnít know if I had a jetting, timing or a possible vacuum leak problem. For those of you not familiar with timing this beast, itís a bit different than most other bikes. Most bikes of that era had the timing set statically. Wouldn't you know it; starting with the 465's, Yamaha specifies that the timing be set dynamically (engine running, using a timing light and tachometer). Yamaha recommends 16 degrees BTDC at 2000 rpm. This requires using a 12V battery to power the timing light. The Yamaha timing marks are not like the big ďTĒ and ďFĒ found on the flywheel of Hondas. The marks are relatively small and likely covered with a little grime. Also, there are three areas where you will need to locate timing marks; the flywheel, the crankcase and the stator plate. I marked the flywheel and crankcase timing marks in red color so they would show up better. Big thanks to Kevin for his assistance in the location of the procedure of this whole mess. First, I set the static timing at factory specs (2.0mm BTDC) using a dial indicator. This required the partial removal of the engine as the frame interfered with my dial indictor. Of course you get to pull the flywheel each time you need to make an adjustment too. I had removed the stator plate for cleaning so I canít tell you what the original timing was set at but I believe it was too far retarded, which is as bad as having the timing too far advanced. Guess what? The bike started great, like 4th kick after sitting for a month.

Then, with the engine runnng, I checked for any seal/gasket leaks by spraying WD40 around the ignition side crank seal, base gasket, carb intake and reed gasket areas. A spray bottle of water works well here too. I didnít get any indication of a leak. Then I put the timing light on and had a look at the marks (kinda takes a knack the first time or two doing this); hmmm, not far off. I shut the bike down and restarted while it was hot and it started in three kicks. Adjusted the idle and the air screw and ended up advancing the timing just a wee bit more. Then I took the 465 out for a ride on a long steep uphill gravel road. Power was smooth on the bottom then started coming on hard at about 1/3 of the way through the RPM range. Iím using a 3.5 slide in the carburetor that probably helps smooth the low-end power. Found a flat hard packed section and the front and came up easily in fourth gear (I didnít try fifth). The engine noise that I experienced on a MX track at Diamond Don's was gone. Plug was tan/brown. This is one of the cleanest running big bores Iíve ever seen. Iím running Maxima Castor 927 at 40:1; back in the day Yamaha recommended 20:1. So I think Iím in the ballpark. There will be more adjusting & fine-tuning needed. For one thing Iím not happy about itís cold starting, as it seems to be a bit of a moving target. This could be my technique or a mechanical issue, for one I probably will bump my PJ from a 40 to a 45 but until I can get it out on a track for a more extended eval, I'm calling it good. [/QUOTE]
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Old 07-27-2013, 12:44 AM   #260
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If you still have OE crank seals, reed petals, and main bearings fitted, it would be a very good idea to replace them with new parts, using viton rather than nitrile rubber crank seals as these will cope better with modern Efuels.

All properly set up open class MX bikes will start easier if you flood the carb slightly, by leaning bike over on its side till fuel flows out of the atmo hoses.

Not a great idea to use castor oil in any 2T motor, unless you are running alcohol fuel, as this will tend to gum up rings, as well as greatly increasing the need for exhaust system servicing.

Best possible oil for serious racers is Castrol XR77, which supersedes the earlier A747 is a genuine full synthetic (not diluted with solvents, like the dual purpose 2T oils), run at around 50-60:1.
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Old 07-28-2013, 04:57 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by ctune80 View Post
Great pics and story Kevin, that looks like fun, I have to go next year!

What is the source of that repop LOP Jersey? I saw one from a guy in France a while back but can't find it now.

Yes, lots of fun. I bought the jersey of Doug Childress whom advertised them on the vintagemx.us . Doug is known for building MX cone pipes.

He made a limited run of theses and other styles, not sure if he has any left but you should be able to find his contact info on that site.

I have a husky and CZ jersey from him to. They are all top notch vented jerseys like you would get in the '70's. He had a Belray Maico jersey that was really cool too but I didn't get that one.

If you go next year, drop by and say hi!
Kevin
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:07 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by ThereisnoSpoon View Post
Nice bike! I used to have a 1980 YZ250 that was similar, but with less power obviously.



We were there.

That's me in that picture above in 1982 and I was in the class right after you this year.

This year I was on a 1988 CR500



That was a great weekend, right?
Yes, terrific time!

Nice shot of you, great form and nice roost !!!

Had a quite a good chuckle over the "Team Lickme" photo . Those were fun times too!

Kevin

Even Pat says so!

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Old 07-28-2013, 05:19 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by roffe52 View Post
Hi. Did you do more about jettings on the carburator? Have a 465 and have some small problems. Send all info about ignition and jettings. Thank you guys.

[/QUOTE]

I see you found WFOPete's super ignition timing write up, great!

Here is jetting that works for me,

slide cutout =3.5 (hand filed)
main jet=380
Pilot jet=45
needle Jet=R0
jet needle= 6DH4 (middle clip)
DG pipe, stock porting

If you can't get it to idle check the pilot jet to see if it is gummed up.

If the idle hangs high then you may have an air leak. They can leak at the base gasket (my IT490 had this problem), the intake boot (cracks from age) and at the crank seals.

Good luck!

Kevin
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Old 07-29-2013, 05:23 PM   #264
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Unadilla - Sunday Moto 1

Ok, Saturday's ride was fun although my performance was not exactly stellar.

So I was more than a little determined to make a better showing of it on Sunday.

Still, I had some troubles.

We slept in an extra half hour Sun morning (us old people need our rest) thinking with practice starting so late on Sat we would have plenty of time for some extra shut eye. However, when we got to the track, practice was all ready going on!

So now I was in a real big hurry to get the gear on, pull the bike off the truck and get started. But, kick, kick , kick... no fire! It appeared the float had hung up as gas was leaking from the carb.

Time was running out and I didn't have a lot of options. But I did have that big blue It490 in the back of the truck. Off it came... I removed the headlight, speedo and tail light in order to get it through tech inspection. Thankfully it started right away. While I missed practice again (sheesh!), I was able to ride the bike in a nearby field. It ran good, solid clutch and good strong pull.

Who knows what they were thinking down at the staging area. There was some nice iron down there. Now who's this guy on the trail bike? Cross country was Friday, duh!

Anyway, it's not very often you have your own personal photographer at the races. So I'm going to use 's pictures to tell the story...

Here we are at the start, you can see a pair of Honda's that really flew out of the gate.



Into the 1st turn, we see Maico guy and the Honda's. Looks like I'm back there somewhere still waking up.




As we round about, I am following this Yamaha. This was as close as I would get to him. He (#77) would go on to win Moto 1.




As we complete turn 2, I seem to be around 6th and looking for an inside line.



Next is 1st time shooting out of gravity cavity. Maico guy in 1st, #77 in 2nd, #53 in 3rd and some trail rider in 4th.



And into the turn,



And around we go!



#77 and Maico guy would get away from me. But the next time through this corner I would pass #53 for 3rd place. Amazingly caught the pass...





I tried to run down Mr. Maico who had fallen back to second place. However, suspension was a little too soft and I almost got bucked off in a back section.



While suspension was a bit of a handicap, the 490's power was fine and dandy!



This is the 3rd and final time out of the cavity. You can see #53 just dropping in as I am landing on other side of the U. By this time says announcers are commenting about some enduro guy on the move! "Cant miss him, he's on that blue enduro bike".



From the position of my elbow, it looks like I need a quicker turn throttle!



And there's Maico rider, within view!




On the pegs through the turn






Ah, but 3rd would be best I could do as I close in on the flag. Truth is I was pretty tired and just hanging on at this point!



Next up I==> Moto 2!
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FJ_Kevin screwed with this post 07-29-2013 at 05:40 PM
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Old 07-29-2013, 07:22 PM   #265
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Love it!
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Old 07-30-2013, 03:58 AM   #266
wfopete
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Kevin,

It is obvious your YZ doesn't want to play.

So:

1. Park the YZ

2. Put your YZ plastic and suspension on the IT.

3. Or leave the IT plastic in place and "Be the Faaaast Guy on the Enduro Bike"
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Old 07-30-2013, 05:44 PM   #267
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I see you found WFOPete's super ignition timing write up, great!

Here is jetting that works for me,

slide cutout =3.5 (hand filed)
main jet=380
Pilot jet=45
needle Jet=R0
jet needle= 6DH4 (middle clip)
DG pipe, stock porting

If you can't get it to idle check the pilot jet to see if it is gummed up.

If the idle hangs high then you may have an air leak. They can leak at the base gasket (my IT490 had this problem), the intake boot (cracks from age) and at the crank seals.

Good luck!

Kevin[/QUOTE]

To help out here are a couple of pics of what to look for when playing the timing game on the YZ465:









My old YZ456G model has been sitting since last November. I never even drained the fuel out of it (Bad Boy!!) so this morning I decided it was time to do that. While I was at it I pulled the carburetor pieces to verify the jetting I had used.



One thing that I did that I feel was a smart thing was to start out with a new carburetor with new brass. There is often a fair amount of wear and tear on these older carburetors and by starting off with a new one I eliminate that mystery aspect of tuning. I tossed the slide in favor of a new 3.5 version.



Then ordered a variety of needles, needle jets, main and pilot jets. I had a pretty good idea of what range of jets I wanted based off of seeing what others ran in their bikes. Anyway here is what I ended up with:

Slide: 3.5
Main Jet: 370
Needle: 6DH3
Needle Jet: 247-Q2
Pilot Jet: 50
Needle Clip: 2nd from bottom
Air Screw: 1.25 turns out
Oil/ratio: Maxima 927 Castrol @ 40:1
Elevation: 0-800ft AMSL (Height above mean sea level)

My 456 has always run pretty good down low (read crisp) and I like that. Strangely enough this was with a #50 pilot jet (most folks use a #40 or #45). Mid range jetting may be a little thick (rich) but not bad and top end is a touch toward the leaner side too but hey, how long are you going to be wide open on a YZ465 (and live to tell about it)?

I’ve always been happy with my plug readings. This plug has about 6 hours on it:





The spark plug is a NKG B8EG but I don’t have a problem running a standard run of the mill NKG B8ES.

Now I don’t pretend that I have the ultimate YZ465 jetting. I’m sure that it could be dialed in better, but the bike starts good, runs clean & has never fouled a plug. I credit the timing as much as the jetting. As far as I know the porting is stock.

/
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:11 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wfopete View Post
Kevin,

It is obvious your YZ doesn't want to play.

So:

1. Park the YZ

2. Put your YZ plastic and suspension on the IT.

3. Or leave the IT plastic in place and "Be the Faaaast Guy on the Enduro Bike"

Yeah, I know and not good given the subject of this thread!

I found my clutch slip issue was a result of using 465 springs with my 490 clutch assembly. The 490 pressure plate has a deeper well where the springs fit. The 490 springs are longer by the same about (~0.1" if memory serves).
My 465 springs were not compressed enough in the 490 pressure plate so eventually clutch slipped.

Here is a comparison,



I overlooked this when doing the clutch swap (oddly the part numbers are the same, maybe 465 number has been superseded?).

I put in Barnett heavy duty springs and have noticeably stiffer pull at the clutch lever and no slip now. Cant believe I missed this! Maybe I have that Adult ADD that's been going around.

My start problem was easy and self inflicted too. When playing around with jetting, I was swapping carbs back in the spring. One of them had a new float needle and seat while the other did not. Of course I got distracted by other things (like other old motorcycles ) and forgot which was in the bike. My carb overflow at Unadilla was from the carb with old seat assembly.

After putting in a new float needle assembly the bike started on 1st kick, cold with just choke on . Ran great up until the time I hurt my knee.


Speaking of which, the torn cartilage in my knee shifted back into position. All it took was a snap, crackle, pop and temporary lightening bolt of pain !

So after 1 week + on crutches, I can walk again. I am getting orthoscopic work on Monday. Wont fix all my problems but will get me going again I hope, torn ACL will not be repaired for now.

In the mean time I'm looking into knee braces. There seems to be a lot of choices out there.

Thanks for adding your jetting info!




And MRI for your shoulder tomorrow, right? Good luck with that!

Kevin
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Old 07-31-2013, 07:40 PM   #269
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MRI results are in:

1. Nearly complete tear of the supraspinatus.

2. Dislocated bicep tendon.

3. Tiny Peripheral cyst (where, what I don't know).

I understand that 1 and 2 often go hand in hand.


Dang Kevin, I was going to suggest we try to make Unadilla next year and race in the same class. But between our bikes and our bodies all we may able to do is play spectator.

Don't know if you have this but here is PDF FILE it has the stock carb jetting and list optional jets for your bike.

http://vintage38.tripod.com/YZ250_490INFO.pdf


here is the main page also with lots of other yz and mx info

http://vintageyzinfo.tripod.com/index.htm

I got this off of the vintagemx.us web site.
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Old 08-06-2013, 07:34 PM   #270
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I loved this thread in the build process, now its even better that you're racing and getting results
I really like the indepth engineering stuff swapping between the 490 and 465 to get the ultimate bike.

I only owed the 490 in my youth so never got to ride the sweeter handling 465, its great to see you swapping between bikes during the races.

I remember racing my mates around the local tracks back when i was 15 or 16 with this bad ass firebreathing yam, there's nothing more entertaining than a small fast bike in the corners and a big fast bike on the straights.. it's the basis of all epic motor races.

I remember mum bought me a book called Yamaha Dirtbikes for xmas around that time the author was Colin Mackeller, an absolute must read for any fans of that era.

keep up the good work and ride safe.

rich
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