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Old 08-22-2013, 05:59 PM   #226
Dagofast
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I'm just patiently waiting for pics of Krop's ex-girlfriend.
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Old 08-22-2013, 08:29 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Kropotkin View Post
That's what's going on at Ducati now. Of course, there's still no guarantee of a successful outcome, but at least they are actually trying to fix the real, underlying problem, instead of dicking around with the bike.
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About Ducati-
I've had it up to here with them! If/ when I hear that goddam Gobmaier again talking about how the team structure has changed and the organization chart is all different now, I'm going to puke.

Doesn't the VW empire own any machine tools, and have machinists and welders who can run them?
BUILD ANOTHER BIKE ALREADY!!!
WHAT YOU ARE RACING NOW SUCKS!!!
With all due respect, Krop, are you related to Gobmaier or something?
The "underlying problem" is that Ducati's bikes suck, and it's going to take a LOT of "dicking around" to fix them. In the entire Audi/VW empire, plus the strays hanging around at Borno Panigale, ONE engineer and ONE machinist using ONE CNC machining center could produce a frame a day given ONE welder to stitch the pieces together. Vary widths and thicknesses for flexibility of frame and swingarm pieces, move the steering head around, move the motor around, and give the horde of riders and test riders a whole truckload of things to gather data from.

Instead, they waste their time and money moving cubicles around in the offices, and for all the different reporting relationships and communication structures, they are the most behind that they have ever been.

My snide side sez that even Spies doesn't know how the Ducatis work, or he would have upshifted once after leaving the pits to engage the traction control. You can't fix stupid.
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:42 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by tinhead View Post
With all due respect, Krop, are you related to Gobmaier or something?
The "underlying problem" is that Ducati's bikes suck, and it's going to take a LOT of "dicking around" to fix them. In the entire Audi/VW empire, plus the strays hanging around at Borno Panigale, ONE engineer and ONE machinist using ONE CNC machining center could produce a frame a day given ONE welder to stitch the pieces together. Vary widths and thicknesses for flexibility of frame and swingarm pieces, move the steering head around, move the motor around, and give the horde of riders and test riders a whole truckload of things to gather data from.

Instead, they waste their time and money moving cubicles around in the offices, and for all the different reporting relationships and communication structures, they are the most behind that they have ever been.

My snide side sez that even Spies doesn't know how the Ducatis work, or he would have upshifted once after leaving the pits to engage the traction control. You can't fix stupid.
Ducati have already done a whole shitload of dicking around. Spies inherited 15 boxes of new parts when Rossi departed, which they hadn't tested yet. The problem is not building new parts, it's building THE RIGHT new parts. That requires the entire staff of Ducati Corse be taken out the back of Borgo Panigale and be beaten with sticks until they give in. The punishment beatings are currently being administered, but there are still a few recalcitrant diehards left to go.

Only then will they start producing parts which actually work. Building a frame is a piece of piss. Designing one which works is seriously fucking difficult.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:16 PM   #229
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I'll agree with you, Krop, only to the point that ending up with 15 boxes of untested parts at the end of a season is a management problem.
Relying on Spies to do any testing of the leftover pieces is another one.

I have heard from my local Ducatistis that the issues with Audi go beyond the race team, the car guys just don't get bike guys thing. Erik Buell dba EBR may benefit from the disaffection among the (small) crowd that just has to have a racetrack proven offbeat Twin to ride around on.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:42 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by tinhead View Post
I'll agree with you, Krop, only to the point that ending up with 15 boxes of untested parts at the end of a season is a management problem.
Relying on Spies to do any testing of the leftover pieces is another one.

I have heard from my local Ducatistis that the issues with Audi go beyond the race team, the car guys just don't get bike guys thing. Erik Buell dba EBR may benefit from the disaffection among the (small) crowd that just has to have a racetrack proven offbeat Twin to ride around on.
Regarding using their MotoGP riders for testing, that strikes me as risky. Only Dovi has not suffered serious and career threatening injury in recent years. Heck, CS got sick to his stomach it was so bad...

And Dovi will get his chance to be transported too.

I think everything Krop has stated about what it takes to change a corporate approach is absolutely true. You have to change the seats in the cubes to make significant change up stream. It takes a long time. Then you have to have some successful changes in the product to learn from. Of course there is a short cut. A great leader! But there are not many of those in our small sport. And most of the greats have been Japanese, so that data point doesn't help either. But I am hopeful Ducati will come back stronger then ever.

I am disappointed Krop thinks it will take two more seasons for Ducati to win again, but I can wait. There will be a lot of new stuff going on to hold my interest.
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Old 08-23-2013, 02:20 PM   #231
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Regarding using their MotoGP riders for testing, that strikes me as risky. Only Dovi has not suffered serious and career threatening injury in recent years. Heck, CS got sick to his stomach it was so bad...
But a big part of their problem is that it's the last 1% of performance that they need to find. Pull the top six racers from CCS, put them on the factory prototypes in round-robin fashion (i.e. three races, each racer rides a different manufacturer's bike in each race), and I bet that the times don't show the turnip-truck effect we see in the GP races (assuming, of course, that the bikes and riders remain in functional condition). Only a very few riders are capable of pushing a GP bike hard enough to find the limit.
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Old 08-23-2013, 03:16 PM   #232
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i think its the status quo.If they REALLY wanted to change something they would get a rider and a crew chief who had the authority to ask for what they wanted...and get it.They would still take a long time unless the personell involved also really really know what they are doing.At the moomnet you could say there is only one factory actually doing that,and i think that approach is new for them
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Old 08-23-2013, 03:32 PM   #233
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i think its the status quo.If they REALLY wanted to change something they would get a rider and a crew chief who had the authority to ask for what they wanted...and get it.
I think it is a group effort, but like others have posted, we all know the test riders must have the required pace to find results. I think that happens with Ducati. Crazy Joe will find a direction for them, and maybe even Pirro too. They are only a few tenths off the factory boys. They will display progress if there is any to be had. I am hopeful.
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:18 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Kropotkin View Post
Ducati have already done a whole shitload of dicking around. Spies inherited 15 boxes of new parts when Rossi departed, which they hadn't tested yet. The problem is not building new parts, it's building THE RIGHT new parts. That requires the entire staff of Ducati Corse be taken out the back of Borgo Panigale and be beaten with sticks until they give in. The punishment beatings are currently being administered, but there are still a few recalcitrant diehards left to go.

Only then will they start producing parts which actually work. Building a frame is a piece of piss. Designing one which works is seriously fucking difficult.
Why hasn't Spies or anyone else at Ducati tested the 15 boxes of parts? You mean at the big Ducati regalia test day (with what, 6 riders and bikes) NO ONE tested them? Sounds like a well organised race program to me....
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:50 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Pantah View Post
I think it is a group effort, but like others have posted, we all know the test riders must have the required pace to find results. I think that happens with Ducati. Crazy Joe will find a direction for them, and maybe even Pirro too. They are only a few tenths off the factory boys. They will display progress if there is any to be had. I am hopeful.
Its not like they havent had a fast rider in the last 6 years

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Old 08-25-2013, 01:53 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by xltrider View Post
Why hasn't Spies or anyone else at Ducati tested the 15 boxes of parts? You mean at the big Ducati regalia test day (with what, 6 riders and bikes) NO ONE tested them? Sounds like a well organised race program to me....
Those boxes were unopened when Spies arrived at the start of the year. Whether they have been tested since then, I do not know.
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