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Old 08-26-2013, 09:11 PM   #16
Kootenai Rider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tapdiggy View Post
Your point is valid, where dirt riding can mean your tires lose contact with the ground regularly. But the OP seems to be talking about trundling along on a fire road at a relaxed pace, as opposed to woods riding.
I don't think anyone considered woods riding with ABS, I think he was just saying as a Dual Sport type ride (off pavement) that it would be a bad idea.

I do not own any ABS equipped bikes, though borrowed Ladybug's ABS equipped bike a few years back. My closest call with it was actually while trundling along. Road swerved to avoid a mudish hole, dry that time of year. I was through it and basically back on the gravel road. I went that way to pass a slower rider. Not riding much faster, but I took the more direct line. Well we came together actually at almost the same time, so I got on the brakes some and ended up sliding right past the other rider as the ABS engaged. I think ABS kicking in when you least want it to can happen at about any speed.

I have looked at a few bikes that I would want to D/S/Adventure ride on that come with ABS only and it cannot be disabled. I figured I would completely remove that system just so I could get the bike I want, with the brakes I want.

If I had to boil down my dislike of ABS to one thing...its that I am not truly the one controlling the bike. There is some measure of computer controlling it. I want complete control of every bit of the bike, so when I wind up in the ditch, I can blame myself, and figure out where to improve.

as with everything. YMMV.
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Old 08-26-2013, 09:43 PM   #17
DAKEZ
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Stop with the logical posts... You will confuse them.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:05 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada View Post
Okay, so, I know that the juicy top notch ADV bikes have ABS that can be switched off (with varying degrees of ease) for when one heads out across the unpaved roads.

My question is this:

How important is it to be able to switch off the ABS for a rider that ISN'T imagining himself to be participating in the Dakar?

NOTE TO TROLLS: If you want to go on and on about how real riders don't need ABS, it's just marketing malarky, etc, etc. DON'T. Save it, stuff it, put it where the sun don't shine. I'm not interested in that at the moment, I'm interested in how much real world downside there may be to having ABS while poking around, not racing about, off pavement.
Wire in a switch that is easy to access.
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Old 08-27-2013, 10:19 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
ABS is for the tarmac.
And I'm seeking an understanding as to WHY it's not for off the tarmac.
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Old 08-27-2013, 10:28 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommando View Post
Wire in a switch that is easy to access.
How practical is that? Have many folks done it?
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Old 08-27-2013, 10:39 AM   #21
eatpasta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada View Post
And I'm seeking an understanding as to WHY it's not for off the tarmac.
its just as simple as when you want to stopoff road, the tires need to dig by locking up. Every time the tire starts to slow down or skid, the ABS kicks in a prevents the skid thereby making it nearly impossible to even slow down in the dirt or ice. just imagine applying the brakes and essentially nothing happening aside from the noise of your ABS cycling like crazy.
If you're going down hill, this can become extremely dangerous, very quickly..... especially with a 750 lb bike
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Old 08-27-2013, 10:51 AM   #22
Bob59601
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Laugh

Yep and it is simple to do. At least it was on the 990.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada View Post
How practical is that? Have many folks done it?
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Old 08-27-2013, 10:57 AM   #23
Andyvh1959
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I used to work directly with Bosch ABS systems development engineers on heavy trucks back in the late 80s early 90s. Although it was on trucks, the control principles of ABS are fairly uniform for railway, airplanes, cars, trucks and motorcycles. It all has to do with how much predetermined slip/wheel lock is programmed into the ABS controller, how qucikly the system can "cycle" the brake on any wheel on/off, and how quickly the wheel/tire being braked can "speed up" after the ABS brake control is released.

That last part is called hysterisis: the time delay for a slowed/stopped wheel to spin back up to vehicle speed before ABS control is applied again. A good comparison is a large truck wheel/tire assembly compared to a motorcycle wheel/tire assembly. Obviously, the truck wheel/tire has much higher hysterisis because of its higher mass.

In ABS control, on loose surfaces the system expects the wheel assembly to spin up faster than it actually does (like a tire plowing into sand or gravel, creatng a "dam" in front of the tire). But the tire does not spin up to speed, and ABS control then holds OFF brake pressure until the tire spins up. Like shown on that video, the bike had little or no braking down hill. In the case of loose surfaces that can "dam up" in front of a tire it is better to turn off the ABS control so the rider still has braking control. Generally speaking, on loose surfaces the vehicle speed is lower than on paved surfaces. That is why it is best to turn ABS off, when going off road.

ABS control on just the rear tire is also not a good idea on loose surfaces like sand, gravel etc. The downhil example on dirt is the best proof. Downhill on dirt is often best done by dragging the rear brake, sometimes to purposely lock the rear tire, to ride the dam of material ahead of the tire. Also, quite often on loose surfaces, its a good technique to lock the rear tire to bring the back end out or "back it in". With ABS control on the rear tire this can't be done either.

Also, like I said earlier, ABS control expects a wheel to speed back up once control is initiated. If the tire on ABS control dams up material, and the ABS cycles the brake off, but the wheel delays in spinning up because the "dam" is restricting it, the ABS may sense this as a fault condition and shut itself off and initiate the ABS warning lights. Again, to avoid a false system error, it is better to turn off the ABS for loose surface conditions.

To the comment "wire in a switch to turn it off", be careful how this is done. It "may" turn the system off. But it may also trigger an ABS fault mode. Then when back on the road, it would require resetting the system to clear the fault. Not as simple as just wiring in a switch on the ABS power lead.
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Old 08-27-2013, 11:06 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post
I used to work directly with Bosch ABS systems development engineers on heavy trucks back in the late 80s early 90s. Although it was on trucks, the control principles of ABS are fairly uniform for railway, airplanes, cars, trucks and motorcycles. It all has to do with how much predetermined slip/wheel lock is programmed into the ABS controller, how qucikly the system can "cycle" the brake on any wheel on/off, and how quickly the wheel/tire being braked can "speed up" after the ABS brake control is released.

That last part is called hysterisis: the time delay for a slowed/stopped wheel to spin back up to vehicle speed before ABS control is applied again. A good comparison is a large truck wheel/tire assembly compared to a motorcycle wheel/tire assembly. Obviously, the truck wheel/tire has much higher hysterisis because of its higher mass.

In ABS control, on loose surfaces the system expects the wheel assembly to spin up faster than it actually does (like a tire plowing into sand or gravel, creatng a "dam" in front of the tire). But the tire does not spin up to speed, and ABS control then holds OFF brake pressure until the tire spins up. Like shown on that video, the bike had little or no braking down hill. In the case of loose surfaces that can "dam up" in front of a tire it is better to turn off the ABS control so the rider still has braking control. Generally speaking, on loose surfaces the vehicle speed is lower than on paved surfaces. That is why it is best to turn ABS off, when going off road.

ABS control on just the rear tire is also not a good idea on loose surfaces like sand, gravel etc. The downhil example on dirt is the best proof. Downhill on dirt is often best done by dragging the rear brake, sometimes to purposely lock the rear tire, to ride the dam of material ahead of the tire. Also, quite often on loose surfaces, its a good technique to lock the rear tire to bring the back end out or "back it in". With ABS control on the rear tire this can't be done either.

Also, like I said earlier, ABS control expects a wheel to speed back up once control is initiated. If the tire on ABS control dams up material, and the ABS cycles the brake off, but the wheel delays in spinning up because the "dam" is restricting it, the ABS may sense this as a fault condition and shut itself off and initiate the ABS warning lights. Again, to avoid a false system error, it is better to turn off the ABS for loose surface conditions.

To the comment "wire in a switch to turn it off", be careful how this is done. It "may" turn the system off. But it may also trigger an ABS fault mode. Then when back on the road, it would require resetting the system to clear the fault. Not as simple as just wiring in a switch on the ABS power lead.
Well said. That makes sense that part of the logic is to make sure the wheel is traveling at the speed of the ground before reapplying the brakes. If it doesn't happen fast enough, you simply won't slow down.
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Old 08-27-2013, 11:07 AM   #25
OrangeYZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada View Post
How practical is that? Have many folks done it?
Chances are, turning off your ignition key will deactivate the ABS system and you can lock'em up all you want. Works for my Tiger 800XC.
And if you're going down a hill like in the video, you don't need or even want the motor on anyway.
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Old 08-27-2013, 11:11 AM   #26
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Indeed a fault code is thrown until I cycle the ignition off and then on. I fail to see the problem here. Am I missing something?

My bike does have an ABS overide switch, however if the bike stalls the ABS is reset and I almost never remember to hit the switch again. When using the bypass the ABS is off until I decide to turn it back on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post

...To the comment "wire in a switch to turn it off", be careful how this is done. It "may" turn the system off. But it may also trigger an ABS fault mode. Then when back on the road, it would require resetting the system to clear the fault. Not as simple as just wiring in a switch on the ABS power lead.
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Old 08-27-2013, 11:12 AM   #27
jachard
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Someone posted earlier regarding washboard on dirt roads... This is a huge reason to turn ABS OFF. My 2012 BMW won't stop at all with the ABS on in washboard so that negates the old vs new ABS question.

My simple rule is as follows:

Pavement=ABS ON
Fire road to singletrack=ABS OFF

It's that easy.

Cheers, James
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jachard screwed with this post 08-27-2013 at 11:31 AM
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Old 08-27-2013, 11:23 AM   #28
DAKEZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada View Post
And I'm seeking an understanding as to WHY it's not for off the tarmac.
http://advrider.com/forums/showpost....30&postcount=8

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Old 08-27-2013, 11:26 AM   #29
DAKEZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jachard View Post
Someone posted earlier regarding washboard on dirt... This is a huge reason to turn ABS OFF. My 2012 BMW won't stop at all with the ABS on in washboard so that negates the old vs new ABS question.

My simple rule is as follows:

Pavement=ABS ON
Fire road to singletrack=ABS OFF

It's that easy.

Cheers, James


^^^^^ This
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Old 08-27-2013, 11:26 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tapdiggy View Post
It never occurred to me that people ride in the loose surfaces with bikes wearing tires with >70/30 street/dirt ratio. I assume knobby tires when I think dirt. Happily close-minded like that. Tire choice should be a factor in the decision to leave the ABS on for dirt.
Nope, the brakes don't work regardless of tire choice.
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