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Old 08-28-2013, 07:08 PM   #61
Lion BR
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Originally Posted by viverrid View Post
I've not clicked the video so am not talking about that particular rider.

So I'll say it again, having nothing to do with someone in a video I've never watched, a big adventure bike can have a tall enough 1st gear that engine braking alone won't slow it down enough. And braking without clutch will result in a stall.

On a steep descent in loose conditions the rear alone won't have enough stopping power anyway. FRONT brake is needed and in those conditions I don't want ABS in the front. The rear hardly matters. On my bike with no ABS, I lock up the rear all the time. On my bike with ABS, I invoke the rear ABS all the time. The rear hardly matters in those conditions, it has so little braking power anyway.

It's the front where I would like the ABS off in loose dirt conditions. The rear could stay on for fuck-all it does. I have noted the folks posting about work-arounds and DIY on/off switches. Those sound like possibilities but I wish that the bike came from the factory with a more quick & easy way to turn it on & off. On a D/S bike that is intended to go back & forth from dirt to pavement, I think there ought to be.

On my ABS bike, the procedure is to stop and hold down the button until the light blinks. (I'll try briefly hitting the kill switch while in motion and see if that turns it off.). Then AFAIK it doesn't turn back on again unless I stop and turn the bike off & on. I would prefer it to be more easily switchable. My usual "problem" is that after a stop, I forget to turn it off again and then find myself riding along saying "shit I wish that was off".

I don't doubt it could be useful on pavement so don't necessarily want it disabled all the time since most of my big bike miles are indeed on pavement. IIRC, the more off-road oriented (higher ground clearance) version of my bike doesn't have ABS at all.
Good point man. I agree with you.
I was making a reference to that particular video.
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:59 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by viverrid View Post
And braking without clutch will result in a stall.
And again are you speaking from experience?

nlp
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:01 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
On the Tiger 800XC the ABS is programmed to allow the rear wheel to lock up when moving under some designated speed. I've done it. It works. Very kewl.
I was not aware of this feature. Thx...nlp
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:19 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by viverrid View Post
FRONT brake is needed and in those conditions I don't want ABS in the front....It's the front where I would like the ABS off in loose dirt conditions.
Can you post a video of you locking the front wheel to mound up gravel?
I also note that you do specifically say "loose dirt conditions"... how loose would you say? Loose enough to pile up gravel in front of the wheel in the second or less that you have it locked?
I think people have a weird perception that ABS releases the brakes completely when actually it only prevents lockup. Granted, some people are awesome and can ride around with a locked front wheel, but for the rest of us mortals, there is never a time when we want the front to lock. The rear... yes, disable the ABS, but not the front.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:21 PM   #65
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On most Auto ABS systems, if you pump the pedal during braking the ABS stops.. Do any of the bike systems?



Dave



ANd just to stir the pot:
Ever seen the fastest braking contst they did with F1 drivers ABS vs NON ABS? ABS won every time in the wet about 50% in the dry. They discussed ABS being banned many times in FIA.
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Old 08-29-2013, 05:59 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by pdxmotorhead View Post
Ever seen the fastest braking contst they did with F1 drivers ABS vs NON ABS? ABS won every time in the wet about 50% in the dry. They discussed ABS being banned many times in FIA.
I don't think that's the issue we are discussing here. I hardly think it's a real world issue as far as motorcycle fatalities are concerned when the most prevalent scenarios for a fatal crash are motorcycle runs wide in curve. Even with the dreaded left turning cage the issue is the motorcycle was going fast when the crash happened. It's not like stopping 5 feet shorter would have helped since the bike is nowhere near stopped when the crash happens.

ABS on the street seems to mostly help not dropping the bike when someone panics and grabs a big handful of front brake.

When ABS first came out in cars, there were many cars on the road simultaneously that had both ABS and non-ABS versions. The accident rate wasn't any lower with the ABS versions. People still drove straight into things with their foot on the brake whether they had ABS or not. Stops 5 feet shorter seldom actually makes a difference.
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Old 08-29-2013, 06:13 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Nerb View Post
I think people have a weird perception that ABS releases the brakes completely when actually it only prevents lockup.
I have invoked the front ABS off pavement numerous times. In loose off-pavement conditions it definitely drastically reduces braking effectiveness. As I noted, I have gone into the ditch and into the weeds due to this, when I otherwise could have braked normally and made the corner. The way it "prevents lockup" is by briefly RELEASING THE BRAKE for that wheel. The problem in some off pavement conditions is that it releases it for so much of the braking time that there is MUCH less braking.

Quote:
Granted, some people are awesome and can ride around with a locked front wheel, but for the rest of us mortals, there is never a time when we want the front to lock. The rear... yes, disable the ABS, but not the front.
I'm not awesome, I'm an old man with cancer. I don't "ride around" with the front locked, I lock it and release it during hard off-pavement braking. For anyone with much dirt experience it's not such a big deal. Actual dirt bikes never have ABS and the front brake still provides the majority of braking power. Sometimes the front starts to lock up and then you ease off and keep going. When I am riding my dually as a dirt bike, I prefer it to have dirt bike brakes which means no ABS on either wheel. The more-dirt version of my big bike comes from the factory with no ABS (as well as a taller suspension).

When I took MSF-ERC for the insurance discount (which of course is on pavement) on a non-ABS V-Strom 1000 with knobbies, out of boredom I was intentionally locking up the front and pushing it the last 10 feet into the "stop box" every time, until they asked me to please not do that.
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Old 08-29-2013, 06:14 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by viverrid View Post
I don't think that's the issue we are discussing here. I hardly think it's a real world issue as far as motorcycle fatalities are concerned when the most prevalent scenarios for a fatal crash are motorcycle runs wide in curve. Even with the dreaded left turning cage the issue is the motorcycle was going fast when the crash happened. It's not like stopping 5 feet shorter would have helped since the bike is nowhere near stopped when the crash happens.

ABS on the street seems to mostly help not dropping the bike when someone panics and grabs a big handful of front brake.

When ABS first came out in cars, there were many cars on the road simultaneously that had both ABS and non-ABS versions. The accident rate wasn't any lower with the ABS versions. People still drove straight into things with their foot on the brake whether they had ABS or not. Stops 5 feet shorter seldom actually makes a difference.

ABS isn't about stopping shorter its about maintaining control of the vehicle. ABS allows you to steer clear while applying maximum braking. If you don't know how to control your vehicle in the first place ABS isn't much help, which is probably why it didn't reduce any accidents.


When ABS was first introduce with cars people still pumped the brakes like they were taught in drivers ed....this negated the ABS.....
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Old 08-29-2013, 06:30 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Nerb View Post
I also note that you do specifically say "loose dirt conditions"... how loose would you say? Loose enough to pile up gravel in front of the wheel in the second or less that you have it locked?
I have had it happen several times on maintained dirt roads (that conventional cars go on) that merely had a layer of "marbles" (small round gravel). It's not like it has to be deep sand or gravel or deep ANYTHING. It just has to have loose stuff.

Of course soccer mom would be driving her car 15-20 mph on that road and maybe I'm trying to come down from 45 to make that curve, I want all the braking I can get. There are specific places where I know it can be done with a non-ABS bike because I do exactly that on my non-ABS bike on that same road. If I turn off my ABS on my ABS bike, I know it can also be done on my big bike because I have done it, on that same road. But the first time when I didn't know to turn off the ABS, or the other time when I forgot? Pucker time into the weeds with both brakes mashed and no fucking stopping power.

I've also had it happen on a powerline trail where I forgot to re-sequence the ABS-off procedure after a stall and restart. Yes my error but it would be more user-friendly if there was a simple throw on/off toggle. And descending a chute lined with smaller round loose rocks (not baby heads but more like golf balls to baseballs) on a now-trail that was a road decades ago but only a rock-crawler Jeep could do it now.

The ABS has nothing to do with going 60 mph or more down a straight firm dirt road where you aren't braking anyway, any more than ABS on pavement is involved when cruising down the interstate. All I know from experience is that ABS in loose off road conditions provides MUCH less braking than I am used to when riding non-ABS bikes in the same conditions. I have had both ABS and non-ABS Big Bikes. I would rather not have ABS in dirt for when it matters, but most of the mileage it doesn't come into play so I don't stop and turn it off every time I turn onto a dirt road. Unfortunately there have been times I wish I had.

Maybe my comfort zone and perspective are different from a lot of other folks here. I rode dirt-only for four years before I was even old enough to get a street license, and then didn't even get on a street bike for another 30 years. I only went to more pavement oriented bike when I started to get old. I know what I expect dirt braking to be, and with ABS I know I don't have it.
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Old 08-29-2013, 06:36 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Offcamber View Post
ABS isn't about stopping shorter its about maintaining control of the vehicle.
Yet the pro-ABS folks always bring up braking contests where the ABS stopped a few feet shorter most of the time.
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Old 08-29-2013, 06:46 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by viverrid View Post
Yet the pro-ABS folks always bring up braking contests where the ABS stopped a few feet shorter most of the time.

Braking distance is less of a factor on 4 wheels than it is on 2. For the average rider ABS will brake quicker and with more control than with out.....think panic braking. Grab a handful off brake and the ABS will let you keep control of the bike and will stop the bike shorter than a non-abs bike when you grab the brake lever with the same force....basically because a tire with traction will stop shorter than one that is skidding. Obviously an expert rider can modulate the brake enough to create the same effect as ABS. Most of us don't have that skill....I know I don't.

Off-road the systems need to be more intuitive I think they have come along way in improving the systems....as i stated earlier Yamaha seems to be on the right track or the left track depending on what country you live in.
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Old 08-29-2013, 06:57 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Offcamber View Post
Braking distance is less of a factor on 4 wheels than it is on 2. For the average rider ABS will brake quicker and with more control than with out.....think panic braking. Grab a handful off brake and the ABS will let you keep control of the bike....
With an ABS car you can mash the pedal to the floor and still swerve. The average rider can't do that with an ABS bike (can anyone?). AFAIK the braking contests are straight line? What ABS does for the average rider is reduce chances for a drop when he panics and grabs that handful of brake. I'm pretty skeptical that it helps the average rider avoid a collision. If you consider a drop from washing out the front without hitting the other vehicle an "accident", then in that sense it would reduce "accidents".
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Old 08-29-2013, 06:58 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by viverrid View Post
For anyone with much dirt experience it's not such a big deal. Actual dirt bikes never have ABS and the front brake still provides the majority of braking power. Sometimes the front starts to lock up and then you ease off and keep going.
I've only been riding dirt bikes since the early 70's and whenever my front brake has locked it is a sign to me that I have over-braked. My goal is always to ride up to that fine line, but to not cross it. And, when I do, immediately release it and reengage.

The only bike I have ridden with ABS is the Tiger 800XC and I routinely dive deep into corners on unpaved roads keeping up with my buddies on their knobby-clad DS 400 and 600 cc dirt bikes with mine shod with 80/20 street/dirt tires.

I've never engaged the ABS on the front with this bike except for emergency braking on pavement.

It should be possible to program any such system to react well under varying conditions and speeds. From my experience the Tiger seems to operate like it has been set up this way.

In the long run, as long as it is providing as good of braking as a non-ABS on dirt, I'm satisfied to leave it on all the time. If it in no way compromises my aggressive riding style it is fine with me if the front never locks up.

On the flipside, putting ABS on a dirt oriented bike that doesn't allow rear lockup and releases the front at inopportune times would be useless, if not outright dangerous.

I think that despite MC ABS having been around since the 80's we are just now seeing significant improvements in deployment of advanced systems.
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:01 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by NateLePain View Post
Are you speaking from experience?
Yes.

Of course it depends on the gearing for 1st, compared to how fast is comfortable in that section. A comfortable speed to coast through the Starbucks parking lot may not but what you want coming down a steep rough hill covered in loose rocks under the powerlines.
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viverrid screwed with this post 08-29-2013 at 07:14 AM
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:12 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
I
I've never engaged the ABS on the front with this bike except for emergency braking on pavement.
It's ironic. I've not engaged the front ABS on pavement except once on purpose, looking for it to see if it was there.
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