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Old 08-30-2013, 07:42 PM   #1246
MotoTex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red9 View Post
Damn you're an idiot...

By your own broad stroke 'literal' explanation a person shouldn't be allowed to ride a fricking bike!

Don't you understand the ramifications of trying to decide what others can do?

"What do you mean," your feeble mind might ask?

Simple fucktard!
I'll even use your words: "As a PEOPLE if WE see fit to share risk thru our current insurance system, then WE as a PEOPLE open ourselves to regulation of those risks."

So what's your answer to the people (and they are out there) who think you shouldn't be allowed to ride a bike because it is increasing their health costs?
"I'll remind you that you said: if I have to cover your risk..you open your self to regulation..

(by the way, I think your breathing and talking through your ass)
I'm on his side here.

If someone tries to pass on their costs to the general population for making a personal decision to participate in a risky activity unsafely, then I too want a say in the conditions that must exist before my money is spent on their recovery.

I am all for individual freedom, as long as it doesn't tread upon mine. The pursuit of happiness is all about controlling the fruit of my labor. The less I control, the tougher my pursuit will be, thus the less happiness realized.

The truest measure of freedom is taking personal responsibility.

This in no way means that I won't donate to charitable causes. I just prefer not to have any third party doing it for me under threat of force.
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Old 08-30-2013, 08:14 PM   #1247
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Just had to do it.

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Old 08-30-2013, 10:36 PM   #1248
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Why are you making it so complicated to tell us that you don't want any mandatory ensurance?

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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
Obligatory link to Hot Chick for reference purposes.
I wonder why it took you that long to bring that up. It's a nice example to show to 16 year old girls, but only loosely related to our discussion.
It's another example of riding under high risk circumstances (in fact even creating them self) and proves things everyone in the thread knows, but completely fails in analyzing the driving mistakes.

By the way, she got a bit fat lately. Looked better shortly after the accident.
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:15 AM   #1249
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
You keep going on about the Peltzman effect.

What was the percentage of those representing the Peltzman Effect when compared to total population of people in the same specific group? (driver, sportsman, bicyclists, etc.)

What I'm getting at is there is nothing to even suggest that everybody is susceptible to experiencing this effect.

So, the rate increased over normal for drivers in fatal collisions, or collisions overall. The increase was a small amount.

Whatever the difference between it and the normal numbers (imagine a pie chart), when compared to the total number of drivers (who did and did not exhibit indicators for the effect) the Peltzman effect would only apply to that tiny sliver of the body measured that was higher than the norm.

Just because it has been observed doesn't in any way indicate that it would have application to any broad aspect of the population. In fact, most people aren't affected by it as shown in the studies.

Granted, a rider exhibiting Peltzman behavior would indeed be at a higher risk than one who doesn't, it wouldn't be all that significant of a factor overall. Well, except for that rider.

Why do Rugby players not get concussions a lot more frequently than NFL players then if it is not the Peltzman effect?

You want to say I am wrong but dont come up with an alternative theory.

Saying that you are immune to the peltzman effect is like saying that you are not human
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Old 08-31-2013, 05:50 AM   #1250
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Why do Rugby players not get concussions a lot more frequently than NFL players then if it is not the Peltzman effect?

You want to say I am wrong but dont come up with an alternative theory.

Saying that you are immune to the peltzman effect is like saying that you are not human
I'm not saying the effect isn't measurable. I'm saying it doesn't affect all football players. What is the percentage of those it does affect compared to all the football players?

It is an effect. But, it is negligible. Hardly worth mentioning in a thread about what everyone can do to reduce injury. Like wearing gear, it would be important to be aware of this effect, beyond that it is a minor thing.

Perspective. Use it, or lose it.

The percentage of the people the effect has been measured to apply to is insignificant. I guess this is why you think that if people wear gear they will get into more collisions, right?

You really don't have a head for applying statistics, do you?
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Old 08-31-2013, 08:03 AM   #1251
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I think they would say that motorcyclists think cages are underrated. I doubt they would see gear as any answer at all.
You think?

In fact there are actually a few posts in this very thread from people with ER experience.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:28 AM   #1252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red9 View Post
Damn you're an idiot...

By your own broad stroke 'literal' explanation a person shouldn't be allowed to ride a fricking bike! There are many that feel this sentiment exactly..

Don't you understand the ramifications of trying to decide what others can do? Yes, that's why I never agree with telling others what to do..

"What do you mean," your feeble mind might ask?

Simple fucktard!
I'll even use your words: "As a PEOPLE if WE see fit to share risk thru our current insurance system, then WE as a PEOPLE open ourselves to regulation of those risks."

So what's your answer to the people (and they are out there) who think you shouldn't be allowed to ride a bike because it is increasing their health costs?
"I'll remind you that you said: if I have to cover your risk..you open your self to regulation.. My answer is..I try to be as responsible as possible so as not to put motorcyclist's in a bad image..by the way I look, and the way I ride..How do you answer it..I mean, besides frothing at the mouth and calling them names?

(by the way, I think your breathing and talking through your ass)Thanks..everytime you post, we all get a glimpse of your intelligence..
Are you thick? I never, NEVER said I think people should wear all the gear..ever..not even a helmet..I debated the safety, or ability to walk away from an accident and I brought up shared risk thru insurance..you can't add ANY of your own context to understand this..You honestly think, once Obama care gets rolling, you won't be told what to eat, what to drink, whether you can smoke? Of course you will..If the G'ment is going to share in the risk of covering people..rest assured, they will mitigate that risk any way they can..remember..NYC has already started..(a liberal bastion BTW)..so..

Why is it so hard for you to understand..those who feel YOU should have to be dressed like THEY want you to be, to operate a motorcycle, are of a liberal mindset, they think they know what is best for you..(You do understand when I say "you", I mean "us as motorcycle riders" correct?) Or was that lost on you? Maybe it got lost in the spittle on your monitor..anyway, I digress..and too..if THEY are helping cover your risk, they can and DO have a say in how much risk they are willing to accept..hence helmet laws...

You're screaming at me putting words in my mouth..or hearing what you want to hear..All I'm trying to explain is WHY some people feel you (us..remember) should do as they say..and 10 people may have 10 reasons for it..
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Old 08-31-2013, 11:22 AM   #1253
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I'm not saying the effect isn't measurable. I'm saying it doesn't affect all football players. What is the percentage of those it does affect compared to all the football players?
enuf so that the NFL just agreed to a $765 million out of court settlement that could have easily been in the billions and bankrupted the league
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Old 08-31-2013, 05:12 PM   #1254
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enuf so that the NFL just agreed to a $765 million out of court settlement that could have easily been in the billions and bankrupted the league
Right. And just how many players were involved in the lawsuit? (EDIT: as it turns out there were two, and they both committed suicide, unable to cope with their dementia.)

Take that number and divide it into the total number of NFL players.

Lets say five players are in the suit. Lets say there are 500 players in the NFL. If these numbers were accurate, they represent 1% of the players.

That is odds of 1 in 100.

So, get the real numbers and do the above exercise. Then you will know what percentage of the target sector (NFL players) are affected by this law suit.

This is pretty basic stuff.

What it does is take the tip of the iceberg being tossed around as hard fact and showing that even though it is a hard fact established by application of the scientific method, the chance of the thing being studied affecting any particular person is probably pretty good odds of it not happening. At all.

In terms of personal "risk avoidance" this information is as important as understanding the effect itself.
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Old 08-31-2013, 05:35 PM   #1255
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It has just been brought to my attention that the NFL suit was brought by 4500 RETIRED players.

So, add up ALL of the NFL players that played during the years these retired players were playing.

Wow, that will be an even bigger number to divide against. In the article was mentioned 18,000 Retired and 12,000 Former players. that is thirty thousand. Divide by 4500. That's what, 15%. If these are the numbers that means NFL players have a 85% chance of not being affected. Current players have better helmets than the Retired players used, this will reduce the incidents of concussions.

And, this is not necessarily Peltzman Effect. It was called Punch-Drunk Syndrome in the article.

Now, the winners of the suit will be awarded for specific diagnosed symptoms of Alzheimers, Dementia, or, Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (which can only be diagnosed after death). In the end the actual number of awardees could be greater or lesser than 4500. Just have to wait and see.

People jump on half the information so often. Because it takes more effort to drag the less dramatic aspect out on their own.

Oddly enough, once you get enough information to grasp a bigger picture the first thing can often become insignificant as far as personal risk is concerned.

So, are you even arguing for Peltzman Effect with your comment?

I don't think so.

Peltzman Effect may have played a part for some of the Retired players. The rest could be players out there doing their best to win a game wearing inadequate gear to protect them in that environment.

There is no direct correlation between this suit and the Peltzman Effect.

There is no before/after data as was used in the scenarios for the studies that proved the Peltzman Effect.

Is this sort of logic a stretch for you?
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:55 PM   #1256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
Right. And just how many players were involved in the lawsuit?

Take that number and divide it into the total number of NFL players.

Lets say five players are in the suit. Lets say there are 500 players in the NFL. If these numbers were accurate, they represent 1% of the players.

That is odds of 1 in 100.

So, get the real numbers and do the above exercise. Then you will know what percentage of the target sector (NFL players) are affected by this law suit.

This is pretty basic stuff.

What it does is take the tip of the iceberg being tossed around as hard fact and showing that even though it is a hard fact established by application of the scientific method, the chance of the thing being studied affecting any particular person is probably pretty good odds of it not happening. At all.

In terms of personal "risk avoidance" this information is as important as understanding the effect itself.

So, I'll take this one step further

how many motorcyclists are there ?
how many head injuries are there

right, even smaller % than football injuries, and not by a little, by a lot

chances of being injured when you get on a bike is prolly less than 0.0000001% with or without a helmet, put that helmet on and it probably drops another decimal place

disc brakes have done more to reduce risk than helmets

ATGATT is overrated
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:13 PM   #1257
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Originally Posted by randyo View Post
So, I'll take this one step further

how many motorcyclists are there ?
how many head injuries are there

right, even smaller % than football injuries, and not by a little, by a lot

chances of being injured when you get on a bike is prolly less than 0.0000001% with or without a helmet, put that helmet on and it probably drops another decimal place

disc brakes have done more to reduce risk than helmets

ATGATT is overrated
If I'm in am accident, I want to be wearing a helmet.

It's my last line of defense after alertness, defensive /offensive riding, practicing threshold braking with my good dics brakes, learning how to intuitively counter steer, properly maintaining my bike, learning the habits of deer, consciously negating the petzleman effect, riding slower than traffic etc.

There's nothing over rated about it.

In fact, even if I'm not in an accident I want to be wearing a helmet, it gives me a place to mount my blue tooth intercom, I can close the visor and make faces at the cars stopped at lights, it keeps the sun and wind and rain out of my eyes, and it is really comfortable.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:17 PM   #1258
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My ATGATT was rated right.
By my speculation it has saved my life on at least three occasions and saved me from a huge amount of Road Rash and perhaps even a broken bone or three
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:26 PM   #1259
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Originally Posted by randyo View Post
So, I'll take this one step further

how many motorcyclists are there ?
how many head injuries are there

right, even smaller % than football injuries, and not by a little, by a lot

chances of being injured when you get on a bike is prolly less than 0.0000001% with or without a helmet, put that helmet on and it probably drops another decimal place

disc brakes have done more to reduce risk than helmets

ATGATT is overrated
"prolly" a little more than that. 200 million motorcycles (per wiki) worldwide at your expertly surmised odds of injury of 1 in 1 billion would imply approximately 1/5 injuries total worldwide.

You should have your guesstimator checked.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:39 PM   #1260
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Originally Posted by randyo View Post
So, I'll take this one step further

how many motorcyclists are there ?
how many head injuries are there

right, even smaller % than football injuries, and not by a little, by a lot

chances of being injured when you get on a bike is prolly less than 0.0000001% with or without a helmet, put that helmet on and it probably drops another decimal place

disc brakes have done more to reduce risk than helmets

ATGATT is overrated
Now you are getting better with the numbers, good work.


Let us look deeper into ATGATT.

ATGATT is overrated, if you own it and never use it and never need it.

ATGATT is rated if you own it and wear it and it saves your skin. (not to mention prevents dehydration, greater comfort in all seasons, etc.)

ATGATT is underrated if you need it and don't have it on.

Your odds of not needing it are in your favor.

Neither the odds, nor choice of gear alone, have any effect on whether or not you draw the short straw. If it is 1 in 100 odds there is no reason to expect you will be one of the ninety-nine and not the one. Someone WILL be the one. It could be you.

Rider skills will have a greater impact on collision avoidance.

Riders who are not practiced in swerving, emergency braking, and other similar skills are the ones who will benefit most from gear. They are also the group least likely to want to use it.

If the shoe (or flip-flop) fits,

Welcome to the club.
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