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Old 08-31-2013, 06:52 AM   #31
hippiebrian
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I agree with everyone, abs wouldn't have stopped this.

When you ride with your wife, or anyone else that has less experience and abilities than you do, SLOW DOWN! She admits that she saw you take the turn and thought she could too. That should tell you everything right there.

Maybe even let her take the lead so she can ride at her own pace and not try and keep up with yours. Just remember, stay back so she doesn't feel she's slowing you down.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:01 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by randyo View Post
ABS prevents wheel from locking, not side slip

if your going too fast to corner on a loose surface, slowing down after the fact doesn't help

when lead riding in a group of any type, 2 people, 10 people, communicate impending turns ahead
Be ready. People argue that point all the time here, and for the life of me I can't understand why...
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:17 AM   #33
LuciferMutt
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Your scenario is EXACTLY how my wife crashed her Buell after she had been riding for about a year.

To answer your question, no, ABS would not have made a lick of difference here. The gravel still would have caused the front to wash if she was braking hard while turning.

Glad your wife is OK.

Mine get a very bruised knee and an impressive cut on her shin, as well as managing to scrape the hell out of the face shield on her helmet somehow.
She also decided, about six months or a year later, to stop riding. She didn't like having concentrate so much, and things weren't coming easier for her. I think she never really got over that spill, which is too bad, but I never pushed it. Riding is not for everyone. I was happy she even did it for a few years, and so is she, because now she can brag to her friends about how she used to ride a motorcycle, and then the photos come out and everyone is impressed. If that makes her happy, it makes me happy.

Short story...if your wife is hesitant to keep riding after this, DO NOT PUSH IT.
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LuciferMutt screwed with this post 08-31-2013 at 07:24 AM
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:41 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WVhillbilly View Post
I would try to find an advanced dirt school for her.
Supercamp!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homey View Post
ABS is a crutch, learn to ride the bike properly first. Then it's a nice back up.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:46 AM   #35
rocker59
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
abs wouldn't have stopped this.
In my experience with ABS on dirt (F650GSD), the ABS releases so much brake when you transition from pavement to dirt under hard braking, it's almost like no braking at all.

She may not have low-sided, but she might have run wide and gone into the left ditch. It's a weird feeling to be pulling the brake lever and lose all braking power.

The lady really needs to learn to transition from front to rear brake in relatively low-speed maneuvers like this. There are other places where sand and oil will get you when using too much front brake: Gas Station parking lots, and intersections on city streets.

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Old 08-31-2013, 08:08 AM   #36
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I think that we are always learning as we ride, sometimes we may not even realize it.
I've been riding since I was a kid, but would still like to do dirt camp and a superbike school.

I think there are VERY few people below the level of a pro racer than wouldn't benefit from one of these schools.

We all do dumb shit sometimes and fall down tho. I would say that doing dumb shit is the leading cause of most single bike accidents.
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Old 08-31-2013, 08:36 AM   #37
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Maybe I'm picking up on the wrong thing, but the first thing I noticed was this: I braked hard, straight ahead on the pavement, released and turned onto the dirt.

Why? If I'm riding with my normal group of knuckleheads, then fine. But if we're on a road they don't know, approaching a decreasing radius turn or something, I'm going to warn them.

In the situation you describe, I would signal the turn early, slow early (assuming that she would do the same) and make it as easy as possible for someone with known confidence issues or low skills to be successful. Like I said, maybe I'm missing something obvious, but why approach at a speed that will require hard braking at all?
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Old 08-31-2013, 08:36 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by viverrid View Post
Better riding certainly would have. We both made the same maneuver. I completed it routinely, she crashed.

Wife & I were each on our own dualsport thumpers. DRZ for me, XT-225 for her. We were riding along a paved road and wanted to make a 90 degree right onto a dirt road. We were rolling along pretty well. I braked hard, straight ahead on the pavement, released and turned onto the dirt.

My wife braked hard on the pavement and was still braking hard as she turned onto the dirt. Of course the front tucked and down she went. Bad sprain resulted. We were both really upset at the time and in hindsight I felt bad that I didn't just stop on the pavement and make sure she was stopped, before we both turned in. (A full stop wasn't necessary at all, but would have made sure she was okay to turn in.)

She said later, weeks later when she was finally willing to talk about it, that it never occurred to her that she should let up on the brake before turning onto the dirt. She drove cars for too much of her life and she drove the bike into the corner like she would have driven her car in (so what if the front tires scrubbed),

So is this what front ABS is for?
The problem is not the equipment. The problem is between you and your wife. In a perfect world, imediately post crash after discovering that your wife had suffered no major injuries, the next words out of your mouth should have been, "Still alive! High five baby!!" We should be looking at photos of your wife standing over her dropped bike with a grin on her face and a confident ADV salute . Instead we get the two of you quietly obsessing over a minor incident for weeks. She lacks confidence and the weeks of stewing over the accident only re-inforce this lack of confidence.

Here is your assignment: Your are to send your wife out at least once per week on a solo ride of at least one hour duration while you stay home cook dinner, clean the kitchen, and bite your fingernails. She will earn confidence in her ability to handle situations on her own, and you will learn that you cannot control every situation.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:00 AM   #39
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Learn to judge available traction

In this discussion so far, I haven't seen much mention of learning to judge available traction. It's not just turning off into dirt, but wet roads, leaves, pavement with sand, dirt or gravel on it, paint on the road, tar snakes.

When I'm riding, I'm always trying to figure out how much traction to expect. I don't trust the traction when riding over paint, cobblestones, bricks, anything wet. I'm probably overly cautious in that area, but that's better than getting surprised by a sudden loss of traction and going down.

I can remember leading a small group ride a few years back where I had one very experienced rider along and one fairly new rider on a Ninja 250. We needed to make a U-turn on a country road, so I stopped the group first, then I turned around, the experienced rider turned around, and the 250 rider didn't really start turning sharply until half way around the turn, and he accelerated too much, so when he went off in the dirt on the other side he hit the front brake and down he went. No injuries to either the rider or the bike, just some dirt and dust on both.

The point is that the new rider didn't really understand how much less traction there was in the dirt on the side (in addition to several other riding errors). I'm not sure how to teach new riders about available traction other than lecturing on the subject and hoping they grasp the concepts and remember it when needed.
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Old 08-31-2013, 11:44 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottrnelson View Post
I'm not sure how to teach new riders about available traction other than lecturing on the subject and hoping they grasp the concepts and remember it when needed.
Put them on an ABS equipped bike and let them brake hard on varying surfaces. Great way to make best use of one of the funniest parts of the motorcycle.
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Old 08-31-2013, 08:19 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viverrid View Post
Better riding certainly would have. We both made the same maneuver. I completed it routinely, she crashed.

Wife & I were each on our own dualsport thumpers. DRZ for me, XT-225 for her. We were riding along a paved road and wanted to make a 90 degree right onto a dirt road. We were rolling along pretty well. I braked hard, straight ahead on the pavement, released and turned onto the dirt.

My wife braked hard on the pavement and was still braking hard as she turned onto the dirt. Of course the front tucked and down she went. Bad sprain resulted. We were both really upset at the time and in hindsight I felt bad that I didn't just stop on the pavement and make sure she was stopped, before we both turned in. (A full stop wasn't necessary at all, but would have made sure she was okay to turn in.)

She said later, weeks later when she was finally willing to talk about it, that it never occurred to her that she should let up on the brake before turning onto the dirt. She drove cars for too much of her life and she drove the bike into the corner like she would have driven her car in (so what if the front tires scrubbed),

So is this what front ABS is for?
ABS isn't the answer. She needs more training/experience. I contend that SOME people who begin motorcycling later in life, never really get really good at it... and SOME do.
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Old 08-31-2013, 09:00 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
The problem is not the equipment. The problem is between you and your wife. In a perfect world, imediately post crash after discovering that your wife had suffered no major injuries, the next words out of your mouth should have been, "Still alive! High five baby!!" We should be looking at photos of your wife standing over her dropped bike with a grin on her face and a confident ADV salute . Instead we get the two of you quietly obsessing over a minor incident for weeks. She lacks confidence and the weeks of stewing over the accident only re-inforce this lack of confidence.

Here is your assignment: Your are to send your wife out at least once per week on a solo ride of at least one hour duration while you stay home cook dinner, clean the kitchen, and bite your fingernails. She will earn confidence in her ability to handle situations on her own, and you will learn that you cannot control every situation.
A good bit of common sense here!
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Old 08-31-2013, 09:24 PM   #43
Reverend12
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What about ABS?
ABS, short for anti-lock braking systems, is designed to detect tire slip and “pulse” the brakes so they don’t skid. The system allows the rider to apply full effort at the hand or brake levers without worrying about locking up the tires, but ABS isn’t effective when a bike is leaned over.

Though it’s difficult to match the stopping distance of an ABS-equipped bike in wet or compromised traction situations, not all riders are enthusiastic about computerized brake intervention. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is considering making ABS mandatory on motorcycles, but both sides of the debate can be quelled when manufacturers equip ABS bikes with a switch that can turn the system on and off.
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Old 08-31-2013, 09:55 PM   #44
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ABS isn’t effective when a bike is leaned over.
That's outdated data. It's true for aged bikes but not for state of the art ABS.
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Old 09-01-2013, 12:23 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by concours View Post
ABS isn't the answer. She needs more training/experience. I contend that SOME people who begin motorcycling later in life, never really get really good at it... and SOME do.
I don't think either of us expect she'll ever be a "really good" rider as in a technical or aggressive rider who gets every inch of performance out of a bike, drags the pegs in the twisties, troubleshoots a suspension setup, critiques a bike's equipment or handling, etc. The expectation is that she would be a basic rider who could ride around our local area on social and/or scenic rides.

She's had other bikes before. This is her third bike and the sixth one she's ridden. It's been that she rides a bit, then gets busy with work, tennis, work, yoga, work (mostly work) and the riding gets put off and put off and the bike just sits. We have sold other bikes because she wasn't using them.

She's the one that asked that I keep this bike for her (I had been using it as an easy-to-ride play bike) rather than sell or trade it in (I bought two new bikes for myself last year). This year I'd said that either she should ride regularly or not at all and we'd been making it a priority to ride every weekend and if possible once more during the week.

She's taken courses, but at what point is someone who is motorcycle-licensed "allowed" to just go out and ride? Isn't that how you get riding experience? Can she ONLY ride in a course until she's an expert? How could she ever get enough riding experience if the only time she rode was in a class? How many classes did everyone else here take before they just went for a ride?

This started out as an ABS question (the answer was no) and has become something else entirely, which is okay and is par for the course around here. So maybe the new question is, at what point is she "cleared" to go on a ride rather the follow a line of other bikes around a training exercise?

Though what I'm seeing in her crash is an example of how a moment's brain fade is of much greater consequence on a motorcycle than in a car. Cars nowadays have ABS that, it being a car, you can brake & turn at the same time. And stability control in case you turn too much. In this case she reverted to car mode and "drove" her motorcycle as she would have driven her car, which could have taken the same line and the same control sequence all day long without crashing.
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