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Old 09-01-2013, 10:21 AM   #61
randyo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
ABS isn't interested in if you first start to brake and then turn or first start to turn and then brake. It just releases the brakes if the wheel locks.



If the side slip results from braking and the side grip is enough to hold you upright without you braking, it - in some way - WILL:
However, when the wheel is already sliding, the grip is a bit lower than while turning, what means if you are using very much side grip and have very little grip left to brake, that small difference could be enough to let you slip further.
I would agree if your just going into the next turn in the road a bit hot, however that is not that the OP's wife was doing, she was making a 90° turn on to an entirely different surface

possible ABS might help in that situation? sure, likely? NO
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:02 AM   #62
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ABS is VERY proficient in handling different surfaces. In fact, THAT's where it shines most, compared to human control.

As I said, what could have been a problem was her having a more pavement oriented tire, so having lesser grip on the gravel road, and what could have been another problem is, she might not have braked as hard before turning, though ABS could have helped with that as well.
The lower grip level maybe was too low for her turning speed (and skill) at all, but the change of surface would NOT have been a problem for a modern ABS.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:07 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
but the change of surface would NOT have been a problem for a modern ABS.
not doubt, but it's still a problem for lateral traction of the tire, braking or no braking
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:28 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by randyo View Post
not doubt, but it's still a problem for lateral traction of the tire, braking or no braking
OP made the turn without wiping out. At minimum the get off would have been less severe, not all front end washouts happen at the same speed. Sometimes it goes out so fast you don't even notice before you're on the deck wondering WTF just happened. Other times you get a foot down and almost catch the damn thing...
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:59 AM   #65
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not doubt, but it's still a problem for lateral traction of the tire, braking or no braking
From all we know, including the limitations I explained, the turn was most likely doable if she released the brakes. ABS would have done that.
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Old 09-01-2013, 02:06 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by henshao View Post
OP made the turn without wiping out..
the turn was also not as much of a surprise to the OP
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Old 09-01-2013, 02:56 PM   #67
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the turn was also not as much of a surprise to the OP
Since she was 50 yards behind me, it was hardly a surprise to her, she saw me turn in. No "surprise" made her turn onto the loose material while she was still braking. If she was really surprised, she would have gone right past, which would actually have been better than what she did do.
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Old 09-01-2013, 02:59 PM   #68
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How long has she been riding regularly?
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:01 PM   #69
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not doubt, but it's still a problem for lateral traction of the tire, braking or no braking
She was braking when she crossed onto looser material, She didn't manage to change direction by very much before the front tucked in. She was both braking and turning at the same time and didn't have enough grip to do both when she crossed onto the looser material. I thought it was a real question whether ABS reducing the braking force would have at least given her some sort of indication the front was being overloaded.

Some have been saying "No, she was turning, ABS doesn't help if you're turning". Others are saying more like "Maybe, because if she hadn't been braking so much she could have made it". I still don't know.
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:11 PM   #70
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I can remember leading a small group ride a few years back where I had one very experienced rider along and one fairly new rider on a Ninja 250. We needed to make a U-turn on a country road, so I stopped the group first, then I turned around, the experienced rider turned around, and the 250 rider didn't really start turning sharply until half way around the turn, and he accelerated too much, so when he went off in the dirt on the other side he hit the front brake and down he went. No injuries to either the rider or the bike, just some dirt and dust on both.
You should not be teaching that guy how to ride!

That guy should take a class!

You should have bike-to-bike intercom with that guy so you can warn him!

Except that nobody is saying that because he is just another guy and expected to be responsible for his own ride.

But substitute your wife for that guy and people have been saying all that to me.
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:15 PM   #71
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The intercom sounds like a VERY god idea. You can point out road debris , tell where you're going or tell what you're doing and why , while you're doing it. Not to mention critiqueing.
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:32 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viverrid View Post
She was braking when she crossed onto looser material, She didn't manage to change direction by very much before the front tucked in. She was both braking and turning at the same time and didn't have enough grip to do both when she crossed onto the looser material. I thought it was a real question whether ABS reducing the braking force would have at least given her some sort of indication the front was being overloaded.

Some have been saying "No, she was turning, ABS doesn't help if you're turning". Others are saying more like "Maybe, because if she hadn't been braking so much she could have made it". I still don't know.
if you want to change your story from, a 90°turn and the wheel tucked, to, she was still braking and didn't turn much, to satisfy your desire to justify ABS I have no problem
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Old 09-01-2013, 04:11 PM   #73
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if you want to change your story from, a 90°turn and the wheel tucked, to, she was still braking and didn't turn much, to satisfy your desire to justify ABS I have no problem
Not changing anything. The side road is at a 90 degree angle to the main road. We wanted to go into the side road but she didn't make it around the 90 degrees. She fell in the intersection when the front tucked in as she was turning and braking at the same time and crossed into the looser material instead of completing her braking more before she turned. I never said she had turned 90 degrees. If she had turned the full 90 degrees she would have already completed the maneuver and there would be nothing to talk about. (The front wheel on a motorcycle doesn't turn 90 degrees so at least you didn't claim I said that.)
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viverrid screwed with this post 09-01-2013 at 04:40 PM
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Old 09-01-2013, 04:22 PM   #74
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The intercom sounds like a VERY god idea. You can point out road debris , tell where you're going or tell what you're doing and why , while you're doing it. Not to mention critiqueing.
I don't think it's a bad idea and we have considered one but never gotten around to doing it. OTOH, I don't go riding to talk while I'm doing it!

I don't think it would have made any difference here. It's not that she didn't know I was turning, she saw me turn. If she had done what I did, brake more on the pavement and then turn, she would have completed the maneuver the same as I did. Instead she crossed onto the dirt while still in the midst of braking. It's not like I could possibly anticipate everything another rider could possibly do wrong and tell them not to before they do it.

As for critiquing, I dunno, aren't I not supposed to try to "teach her to ride"?
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Old 09-01-2013, 04:28 PM   #75
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But substitute your wife for that guy and people have been saying all that to me.
And I don't necessarily agree with everybody here.

I don't believe that ABS would have saved her when pulling off into the dirt while braking and turning, and I think it would be good if there were a better way to teach riders about spotting low traction conditions. Too many don't seem to understand how to tell when traction is going to be less and what you can and can't get away with when you have lower traction.

If I were in your situation, I would discuss traction with my wife, and would be thankful for a wife who actually likes to ride (mine doesn't want anything to do with being on a motorcycle).
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