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Old 09-02-2013, 07:02 AM   #961
Center-stand
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Thanks PFFOG, for your video. Not only does it illustrate precisely what I was trying to describe, it is a fine stretch of highway with very little traffic. Looked like the Dogwoods were in bloom. The wet turn at 8:29 was a good example of making a momentary correction to bring the bike out of the lean just long enough to get through the water.

Would you care to tell us the highway number and location?

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Old 09-02-2013, 07:53 AM   #962
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Originally Posted by Center-stand View Post
..

Thanks PFFOG, for your video. Not only does it illustrate precisely what I was trying to describe, it is a fine stretch of highway with very little traffic. Looked like the Dogwoods were in bloom. The wet turn at 8:29 was a good example of making a momentary correction to bring the bike out of the lean just long enough to get through the water.

Would you care to tell us the highway number and location?

..
Not publicly, like you said, fine pavement, no traffic and twisty as hell, and I want to keep it that way, especially the no traffic or LEO part
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:44 AM   #963
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Originally Posted by HappyForNow View Post
Wait. Hold on a second. I'm confused. You're telling me that I have been riding wrong for 10 years now. WTF?! What do I do now? Oh god. Please somebody help!
Point I'm trying to make is that you guys are trying to complicate something simple. And I'm no noob. I've gone to race schools, club raced & raced in Baja. Keep it simple.
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Old 09-02-2013, 09:11 AM   #964
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65 Pages in...impressive.

So I am a n00b. I have put less than 2000 miles on my bike. I actually took an MSF course (twice in about 4 years) And they explained counter steering. It made no sense the first time around. The second time however I was a little more comfortable on the bike, and played around with pushing the handlebars a little more, and wow! All the sudden the bike fell into the turn the way it should, like MAGIC! All well and good at 25 MPH in a controlled environment.

On my commute to work there are some twisty bits and as I became more comfortable I rode a little faster through the twisty bits until then I remembered what they said in the MSF class "if you're going a little too fast in a turn, push harder and the bike will lean more letting you go through the turn" Before I crossed into the other lane (this particular curve is a right hand curve) I pushed the RIGHT handle bar FORWARD and the bike leaned harder RIGHT and I made the curve with minimal fuss.

So should Counter steering be taught? Yes absolutely, KNOWING that pushing the handlebar would make the bike turn tighter probably didn't save my life or anything, as that road is a relatively tame 55 MPH back road with almost no traffic, but I knew what to do in the situation. Counter steering won't save the Squid who's doing 120 and dumps his bike because he ran out of traction, or couldn't make a turn, but it may well save someone who is riding a little to hot for their entry angle. It does need to be practiced, and that's what I'm going to tell the LEO who is certain I am drunk weaving down the road.

For those who would like a demo to explain to people get one of the kid's toy gyros ( like http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/eafc/ ) turn it sideways and spin it up and then have the person you are trying to teach push the gyro and see what happens. It's basic physics, but it is often easier to show than explain. having someone feel how the gyroscopic action wants to move may help them believe/understand how it works on a motorcycle.

As they say on Mythbusters: WARNING SCIENCE CONTENT
Knowing what will happen when you push on the handlebars is important, why, how, and specific properties less so, but for the scientific minds, a gyro responds to an input on an axis 90 degrees from the input axis. Push up it goes left, push down -> right, twist left it rolls in a funny way. Anyhow here is a good wiki article on gyros. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope

Source: I am a gyro.
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Old 09-02-2013, 09:28 AM   #965
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Originally Posted by Mr Fast View Post
Point .............................. And I'm no noob. I've gone to race schools, club raced & raced in Baja. Keep it simple.

And you made it around all those turns without turning the front wheel. Amazing what they teach you in race schools.
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:15 AM   #966
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Originally Posted by DudeClone View Post
its how it feels for me. i recall hearing and reading a lot of "press left to go right" stuff and it always sounded strange to me? its not a button. how do you press a handlebar? and so i always imagined it more a push

when i turn now or even change lanes quickly at speed i feel a downward force, the bike planted firm. its just a feeling. and when i am leaning hard into a turn and applying the "press" it feels to me like i am pushing against something that is pushing back. and that push and push back is what is keeping me and the bike straight up and even as one. is the bike straight up? i would argue yes. but its in a turn so appears to be leaning



you see guys all this science is now going to make my head explode. i mean wtf did i just post up there? i feel like i am in another dimension

i have crossed over into The Matrix. and i hate that movie!!
The reason why I asked is because I used to do exactly that on my dirtbike. Sort of like pushing the handlebar down toward the front tire when you make your steering input right? The only thing that pushing down on the handlebar does is make the steering input feel harder (because it is harder). Riding around on the street and not trying to race it doesn't make much of a difference at all. If you need to swerve quickly it can become an issue.

After I learned about counter-steering years ago this is one of the things that took time off my laps around the track. I realized that direction changes are done entirely by turning the handlebar with a counter-steer. Obviously the handlebars are on a fixed axis. So the easiest way to turn is to push the handlebars on that fixed axis. If you try to push on the handlebars in any other direction its nothing but wasted energy.

While standing on a dirtbike its hard to get at that angle but it doesn't take much effort to turn the handlebars anyway. It makes a HUGE difference on the sportbike at speed. It feels like it takes half the steering effort when you push on the handlebars from the right angle.

There's no science in this one, just technique.
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Old 09-02-2013, 11:23 AM   #967
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Originally Posted by dazeedmonds View Post
65 Pages in...impressive.

So I am a n00b. I have put less than 2000 miles on my bike. I actually took an MSF course (twice in about 4 years) And they explained counter steering. It made no sense the first time around. The second time however I was a little more comfortable on the bike, and played around with pushing the handlebars a little more, and wow! All the sudden the bike fell into the turn the way it should, like MAGIC! All well and good at 25 MPH in a controlled environment.

On my commute to work there are some twisty bits and as I became more comfortable I rode a little faster through the twisty bits until then I remembered what they said in the MSF class "if you're going a little too fast in a turn, push harder and the bike will lean more letting you go through the turn" Before I crossed into the other lane (this particular curve is a right hand curve) I pushed the RIGHT handle bar FORWARD and the bike leaned harder RIGHT and I made the curve with minimal fuss.

So should Counter steering be taught? Yes absolutely, KNOWING that pushing the handlebar would make the bike turn tighter probably didn't save my life or anything, as that road is a relatively tame 55 MPH back road with almost no traffic, but I knew what to do in the situation. Counter steering won't save the Squid who's doing 120 and dumps his bike because he ran out of traction, or couldn't make a turn, but it may well save someone who is riding a little to hot for their entry angle. It does need to be practiced, and that's what I'm going to tell the LEO who is certain I am drunk weaving down the road.

For those who would like a demo to explain to people get one of the kid's toy gyros ( like http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/eafc/ ) turn it sideways and spin it up and then have the person you are trying to teach push the gyro and see what happens. It's basic physics, but it is often easier to show than explain. having someone feel how the gyroscopic action wants to move may help them believe/understand how it works on a motorcycle.

As they say on Mythbusters: WARNING SCIENCE CONTENT
Knowing what will happen when you push on the handlebars is important, why, how, and specific properties less so, but for the scientific minds, a gyro responds to an input on an axis 90 degrees from the input axis. Push up it goes left, push down -> right, twist left it rolls in a funny way. Anyhow here is a good wiki article on gyros. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope

Source: I am a gyro.
The gyroscopic effect of the wheels is what keeps a two wheeler from falling over , like standing still. Countersteering is something else.
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Old 09-02-2013, 11:43 AM   #968
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
The gyroscopic effect of the wheels is what keeps a two wheeler from falling over , like standing still. Countersteering is something else.
No.....both are gyroscopic properties. The wiki article in my previous post has a pretty informational gif.

The gyroscopic action of the wheels does help balance the motorcycle, however the same gyroscopic properties are WHY counter steering works.

Some people have said that it's because you are turning the wheel slightly and thus is falls into line, that is not correct. You don't turn the wheel enough in a counter steer to cause the tire to fall far enough out of line to have the bike fall over.

Try this: In a SAFE place initiate a lean by counter steering. Then release all input in the direction of the lean, unless you are far enough over that the camber of the tires will carry you through the turn, the bike will right itself. You actually have to continually apply the same amount of pressure throughout the duration of the turn to maintain the turn. That is the gyroscopic action at work.
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Old 09-02-2013, 11:58 AM   #969
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Originally Posted by dazeedmonds View Post
No.....both are gyroscopic properties. The wiki article in my previous post has a pretty informational gif.

The gyroscopic action of the wheels does help balance the motorcycle, however the same gyroscopic properties are WHY counter steering works.

Some people have said that it's because you are turning the wheel slightly and thus is falls into line, that is not correct. You don't turn the wheel enough in a counter steer to cause the tire to fall far enough out of line to have the bike fall over.

Try this: In a SAFE place initiate a lean by counter steering. Then release all input in the direction of the lean, unless you are far enough over that the camber of the tires will carry you through the turn, the bike will right itself. You actually have to continually apply the same amount of pressure throughout the duration of the turn to maintain the turn. That is the gyroscopic action at work.
No , that's the steering rake and trail realigning the wheels. The gyroscopic effect only try's to keep the wheel at its current orientation , be it horizontal , vertical or whatever. Hold a spinning bicycle wheel in front of you with the axle horizontal. It does resist movement , but turn it 45 , 90 degrees or whatever and it wants to stay there now.
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Old 09-02-2013, 02:19 PM   #970
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Well, maybe we can't figure out how we get our bikes through the twisties, but we sure can make this thread go in circles.

Here, again, is a link I posted 10 or 11 pages back.

http://www.manicsalamander.com/artic...cycle-(!).aspx

..
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Old 09-02-2013, 02:57 PM   #971
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I'm still learning to ride a motorcycle, and as I've written earlier - it helps knowing about countersteering. I don't care how or why it works, but when I push the right handlebar the bikes turn more to the right.

I've been riding bicycles for more than 40 years, and drove a cage for almost 30. I was not aware of the countersteering effect until my MC teacher told me a few weeks back, and when I got it I realized that's exactly what I've been doing on my pedal bike and why it helps on a moto as well.

Over here most MC teachers explain what countersteer is and why you might want to know it. I was fully able to swivel between cones without knowing it, but it turned out to be a lot easier when I got it explained :)
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:21 PM   #972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aferiksson View Post
I'm still learning to ride a motorcycle, and as I've written earlier - it helps knowing about countersteering. I don't care how or why it works, but when I push the right handlebar the bikes turn more to the right.

I've been riding bicycles for more than 40 years, and drove a cage for almost 30. I was not aware of the countersteering effect until my MC teacher told me a few weeks back, and when I got it I realized that's exactly what I've been doing on my pedal bike and why it helps on a moto as well.

Over here most MC teachers explain what countersteer is and why you might want to know it. I was fully able to swivel between cones without knowing it, but it turned out to be a lot easier when I got it explained :)

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Old 09-02-2013, 04:23 PM   #973
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Originally Posted by aferiksson View Post
I'm still learning to ride a motorcycle, and as I've written earlier - it helps knowing about countersteering. I don't care how or why it works, but when I push the right handlebar the bikes turn more to the right.

I've been riding bicycles for more than 40 years, and drove a cage for almost 30. I was not aware of the countersteering effect until my MC teacher told me a few weeks back, and when I got it I realized that's exactly what I've been doing on my pedal bike and why it helps on a moto as well.

Over here most MC teachers explain what countersteer is and why you might want to know it. I was fully able to swivel between cones without knowing it, but it turned out to be a lot easier when I got it explained :)
That's because by the time you got done , you had twice the mileage under your belt.
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:35 PM   #974
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joexr View Post
No , that's the steering rake and trail realigning the wheels. The gyroscopic effect only try's to keep the wheel at its current orientation , be it horizontal , vertical or whatever. Hold a spinning bicycle wheel in front of you with the axle horizontal. It does resist movement , but turn it 45 , 90 degrees or whatever and it wants to stay there now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=8H98BgRzpOM


lnewqban screwed with this post 09-02-2013 at 05:04 PM
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:56 PM   #975
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
That's because by the time you got done , you had twice the mileage under your belt.
Is that a bad thing?
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