ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Trials
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-30-2013, 10:31 PM   #91
nwcycle
Studly Adventurer
 
nwcycle's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Northern Illinois
Oddometer: 985
Adios.....

Anyway I got go - I'm done with this thread.[/QUOTE]

Guess he wont show anymore, just like his podium appearances....( Or lack thereof )
nwcycle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2013, 11:01 PM   #92
dhubbard422
Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: Central Texas Hill Country
Oddometer: 64
Wow... what a debacle of a thread...

And to think that this thread started off by asking - where are the Nat'l riders? This might have been an interesting topic. As a former Nat'l (event) organizer, pro level minder and support rider, I have been surprised by the attendance levels at recent Nat'ls.

The pics of the terrain at the AZ Nat'l look amazing and appear to be much prettier than the AZ National I rode a few years ago near the petrified forest. It's unfortunate that more were not able to participate in this event.

Personally, I stopped riding Nat'ls, in large part, because the Support class presented too much risk for my skill and age.

Regarding the digression that this thread took... the top National classes do not necessarily correspond to local classes. Most local clubs would consider themselves lucky to have a single Nat'l Pro or Nat'l Expert level rider and to build a line for Pro would be to build a line for one rider. The Nat'ls are the opportunity for those top riders to compete against others with similar skills - something that they can not usually do at the Local level.

Expert is a class for "old" Pros that want to step down or for future Pros that are not quite ready to step up to Pro. All of the other classes are basically there to allow the National event to succeed on a financial level, i.e. it's financially challenging to host an event for a few (1-2 dozen) Pro and Expert level riders. I believe that the addition of the Clubman class was, in part, to help shore up flagging attendance and maintain revenue...

it is sad that this thread became a vehicle for personal attacks. The personal attacks are not helpful in the least and they are, IMO, very misplaced and completely inappropriate. Please stop.

dhubbard422 screwed with this post 08-31-2013 at 07:28 AM
dhubbard422 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2013, 05:59 AM   #93
broncobowsher
Beastly Adventurer
 
broncobowsher's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Location: Baking in AZ
Oddometer: 1,242
how about another photo to put this back on track
broncobowsher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2013, 06:39 AM   #94
dhubbard422
Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: Central Texas Hill Country
Oddometer: 64
Beautiful playground

Amazing terrain. BIG obstacles. Looks like fun, well the smaller stuff does...

FWIW, from my quick research, i.e. glancing at the Nat'l results from time-to-time, attendance was down at pretty much all of the Nat'l events in 2013. We see that trend, to a lesser degree, at local events too. I hope that is a trend that reverses direction.
dhubbard422 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2013, 06:42 AM   #95
NMTrailboss
Team Dead End
 
NMTrailboss's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Oddometer: 5,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhubbard422 View Post
it is sad that this thread became a vehicle for personal attacks. The personal attacks are not helpful in the least and they are, IMO, very misplaced and completely inappropriate. Please stop.


Quote:
Originally Posted by broncobowsher View Post
how about another photo to put this back on track
Sick!! Nice pic!
__________________
NMTrailboss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2013, 06:42 AM   #96
laser17
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: Boston,Massachusetts
Oddometer: 651
Quote:
Originally Posted by broncobowsher View Post
how about another photo to put this back on track
Great Pic Bronco.
laser17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2013, 08:06 AM   #97
nwcycle
Studly Adventurer
 
nwcycle's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Northern Illinois
Oddometer: 985
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhubbard422 View Post
Amazing terrain. BIG obstacles. Looks like fun, well the smaller stuff does...

FWIW, from my quick research, i.e. glancing at the Nat'l results from time-to-time, attendance was down at pretty much all of the Nat'l events in 2013. We see that trend, to a lesser degree, at local events too. I hope that is a trend that reverses direction.
Well it doesnt help that they jack entry fees up and almost seems like they want to discourage minders with a 100.00 late fee sign ups.
Lets face it, Trials is not a spectator friendly sport,
In the past, i dont really remember even a spectator fee. now every venue had a $10.00 per person tag,
you this might not be a big deal to some, but when some are spending gas fuel, lodging, bike main cost, on top of a $80 X 6 events X 2 Riders, thats almost a $1K alone in sign up fees...
With a lot of the special events in the past I have raced or rode, they at least throw you a T shirt at the event..
But I do also know that those funds help the local club, and I think the TDN Team, so I truly hope it is being used for the cause..
As far as more attendance, maybe we should do the stadium style trials thats popular in Europe??
nwcycle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2013, 09:29 AM   #98
dhubbard422
Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: Central Texas Hill Country
Oddometer: 64
Hmm...

Yes. Minders, except for the Pros, are in my experience, generally discouraged. There have been many issues with too many minders in sections and on the loop. Lower class riders shouldn't need minders. Lower class riders should develop their skills locally and practice on obstacles that will be harder than those they expect to ride at a Nat'l. They shouldn't need a minder to feel safe while riding a Nat'l.

Entry fees for Nat'ls have been significantly reduced in recent years. Given the attendance level at this year's Nat'ls, I expect that the host clubs are barely breaking even. If they weren't closely watching their expenses, it would be possible to lose money.

Stadium style events - been there. Minded for a rider at the 2nd event at the Cow Palace in SF. I enjoyed the experience. However, my understanding is that all of these stadium events in the US have been significant money losers. Those who have promoted these events, most likely with the expectation that they are taking significance risks with their money, have my admiration. However, I do not recommend hosting one here in the USA unless you are simply willing to toss $$$ away in the effort to promote the sport.

Trials has to be one of the most inexpensive motorsports on the planet, if not the most inexpensive. Tires are cheap. The vehicle is cheap and competitive in stock form. At the peak of my trials riding experience, I went through 4 sets of trials tires in a season - maybe, $800 - $1,000. I can spend that on one set of tires for autocross; if I was competing Nationally in Autocross, I'd need a fresh set for every weekend... National level karting would eat up that much $ or more in tires in a weekend or two at most and the rebuild frequency would shock you.

Spectating at a Nat'l Trials is also cheap. I spent $60 just to park at the MotoGP in Austin this past April and that doesn't even include the pair of grandstand seats for 3 days... I think the total for my wife and I was about $400 for the weekend.

Please remember that trials riders can't always continually improve. As one starts riding, with significant practice most can see improvement. However, that improvement can not be sustained over many years. As one gets older, perception of risk may change as well. Please consider that it's important to find places for those riders that are moving down to ride less challenging lines, else they have to disappear from the sport. Personally, I'd rather have "Sandbaggers" showing the newbies how it's supposed to be done as opposed to running off those that have invested years of passion in the sport.

Sorry to be so negative, but I've heard the same complaints over and over and I've only been riding trials for about 20 years. These complaints are often from riders that are just getting started in the sport. Trials events require volunteers. Be involved. Volunteer. Promote events. See how easy or hard it is to make a difference.
dhubbard422 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2013, 10:11 AM   #99
laser17
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: Boston,Massachusetts
Oddometer: 651
126 trophies per weekend gets expensive! Im guessing, that the pre-registration monetary incentives may be an attempt to help clubs from buying unneeded supplies and trophies. I agree, The late signup fee is pretty stiff and the newbie usually finds out about it too late. Maybe something else should be tried.

My personal opinion is that there are too many trophies in trials. I think the pro's /experts probably have enough and would prefer money (I know AIReS was a huge help this year) . I would only give trophies to the kids. Maybe if the NATC would make up inexpensive medallions and sell them to the clubs at cost and as needed for each event it would help reduce cost and waste. The overall championship/end of year "plaque" would be the main award. It could even display the individual medallions the top three had earned over the course of the year. . I know this wouldn't solve attendance problems, but maybe you could have more local clubs step up for "regional" nationals if they knew they wouldn't loose money.
The East/Midwest and West regional overall idea that Lineaway was suggesting seems like a good idea in conjunction with the lower cost model.
laser17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2013, 10:40 PM   #100
dhubbard422
Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: Central Texas Hill Country
Oddometer: 64
Trophies...

Clubs buy trophies based on the number of pre-entries; this is why, in part, there is a penalty for late registration.

Looking at the results from the past year, it'd be difficult to recommend ordering trophies for 3 places in each class... This hasn't always been the case. When I last rode the Support line, which was only a handful of years ago, my age class usually had about a dozen riders. A top three finish was significant and deserved a trophy. However, in 2013 I do not believe that any Support class has averaged more than a handful of riders and most have had difficulty filling the podium. This is a troubling trend and it does not bode well for a financially viable series.
dhubbard422 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2013, 02:37 AM   #101
laser17
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: Boston,Massachusetts
Oddometer: 651
I know 2 riders who didn't ride because they didn't want to pay the added late fee's here in the northeast. Not a big deal, but part of the story. I agree with you, there should be x number of riders per trophy. Either increase X or decrease the cost of trophies or both. I suggest both and keep the nice year-end award.
laser17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2013, 07:35 PM   #102
Sting32
Trials Evangelist
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Minneapolis, Ks
Oddometer: 1,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhubbard422 View Post
And to think that this thread started off by asking - where are the Nat'l riders? This might have been an interesting topic. As a former Nat'l (event) organizer, pro level minder and support rider, I have been surprised by the attendance levels at recent Nat'ls.

The pics of the terrain at the AZ Nat'l look amazing and appear to be much prettier than the AZ National I rode a few years ago near the petrified forest. It's unfortunate that more were not able to participate in this event.

Personally, I stopped riding Nat'ls, in large part, because the Support class presented too much risk for my skill and age.

Regarding the digression that this thread took... the top National classes do not necessarily correspond to local classes. Most local clubs would consider themselves lucky to have a single Nat'l Pro or Nat'l Expert level rider and to build a line for Pro would be to build a line for one rider. The Nat'ls are the opportunity for those top riders to compete against others with similar skills - something that they can not usually do at the Local level.

Expert is a class for "old" Pros that want to step down or for future Pros that are not quite ready to step up to Pro. All of the other classes are basically there to allow the National event to succeed on a financial level, i.e. it's financially challenging to host an event for a few (1-2 dozen) Pro and Expert level riders. I believe that the addition of the Clubman class was, in part, to help shore up flagging attendance and maintain revenue...

it is sad that this thread became a vehicle for personal attacks. The personal attacks are not helpful in the least and they are, IMO, very misplaced and completely inappropriate. Please stop.
Probably the best information I have read, even if is still doesn't address the fact of "the rest of us" down in the "flights" aka Skill levels, where riders should be expecting, and all that... Again, I said the top 2 tiers take care of themselves, the NATC took the easy/at the time obvious, way out long ago. I assume they just thought and was assuming there would be 100's of competitors chomping at the bit for a "class for them." and would toss money into the jar... it did for a while, there are a HELLUVA lot more people that think EXACTLY like NWCYCLE, so like I tried to say, I was not attacking him, EVER. or anything, my goal was to give information that might otherwise leave people dissapointed and all that.

so, here we are. For the lower classes, which IMHO unless the whole "nationals" is SUDDENLY "sponsored by Toyota" last I heard it was NOT... then there HAS to be, some more thought put into the lower classes & competiton structure as a whole. Stupid as not realizing where your target audience is. The lower riders that attend NOW, is the the "bread and butter" for the hosting clubs. This is what will keep the PRO's a place to compets and all that, IMHO. SInce it is Where most of the riders, across the USA are riding in their clubs. These are the guys, that have the money, and ability to attend a trials that isn't in their backyard, let alone a nationals. Lots has change economy wise and family dynamics wise let alone competition wise, for modern trials.

Competition drives 96% of the sport of trials, I believe, even everyone that is NOT a pro. in fact I think every class up to PRO is even more driven, in the fact that we dont get paid a dime, we pay for everything we do, not that the TOP riders shouldn't!!!! But I mean this in a way, for example... I'm 120 miles from my club, I could ride the backyard (and do) every night I want to, but I choose to goto the club events to test myself against the riders I beat or get beat by each month.

I think, at some point, the same has to be said for the nationals. now sure, "technically" since it is "me" against the "trials master" technically... It is, but what I am saying is different. There is still more to it. I reiterate, I will not spend $1000 to enter an event where the outcome is obvious to me, where I myself will be competing against Dustin Land, Marc Carpenter, and those top riders from my area. IF I wanted to enter the MASTER CLASS at my club, even if the masters would RIDE MY SECTIONS (intermediate) the outcome is ordained, if they even show up (or hell ordained if they DON'T show up). Now if I ride against Mike Cramsey, and those guys I usually ride with, the outcome is more than flip of the coin, nor Ordained.

That is the "forgot" about part of the nationals, because the comitee or whomever was more about the PRO-Expert-what have you, with us "also rans" only asked to show up, to "sponser" the costs of putting this whole thing on. But they also know it won't survive without the rest of us going, or top paid sponsor-ships, whish drives up even local trials costs, due to COSTS. Goodyear sells tires at DOUBLE the cost of cheaper barnds, becuase of all the crap they sponsor supposedly sells more tires, I beg you if goodyear dropped the price of the tires by half, I'd but a set all the time. This is the economy nowdays. now Redbull? that is the opposite, they sponsor everything because they have figured out that since $.05 cents of water and sugar and crap in a can, sold for 3 bucks, they can buy anything they want to, and they do, because our kids will buy it by the case, lol...

ANYWAY, I think "TRIALS" and everyone has reached the crossroads, if you want me to sponsor it, meaning you want a big customer market, maybe you better cater to us MORE than we do now... Or figure out how to get REDBULL to pay... So it is going to have to be fixed, I couldn't agree more with the top 2 or 3 classes and how you explained them Rhubbard, makes perfect sense.

But even with my 55 year old brother that ride MOTOCROSS as much or more than I do trials, knows that if he's racing, and enters the class that he's supposed to, that the riders in the race he's in are at least "close" to his skills and talents, and hell age. Those guys pay entries, passes, et al, that also brings the money to put on these events, and yeah someone makes money because it brings in "fans" which trials has a long way to get there yet.

I haven't figured out exactly what or how this would be done differently than what we do as "regionals", where 6 clubs get together and each one, puts on events that the WHOLE CLUB participates, is just about a normal event in every way, except more people show up, we give everyone a free dinner Sat night, and we sell t-shirts BTW. Our club sets up a trials about as good as a nationals most years, except we don't really have to worry about 2 lines, PRO & EXPERT in "nationals" speak difficulty at least. BUT, Those could easily be added, and are for a nationals, why not just have a regular club meet more or less, but with afternoon classes only maybe, due to time and judges.

I have dabbled with the idea, of like natc seems to like to have the "kids nationals" separately, what about a "morning class class with kids all the way up through-sr amature event?" held by clubs that might not have the grounds for a PRO line...

I could host one of those, except I've seen some of the teenage kids nowdays ride harder lines than I can make at my place (master or above).

all the above again, is "thinking outloud" I could start a new thread but might if others have more input here. DONT BE SHY, but be like DHUBBARD, lets not attack each other.

I'm not attacking the NATC in any of my posts, BTW, I am merely trying to point out, that there are things that IMHO might help attendance, even in "lean years" and all that, maybe we can speak our mind here, and get it up the chain of command at some point?
Sting32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2013, 09:16 PM   #103
nwcycle
Studly Adventurer
 
nwcycle's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Northern Illinois
Oddometer: 985
mo Money

Well looks like there a be a total of 6 Venues next year.... 12 days
So anyone who wants to go, they are now looking at another weekend for that best of 7 now
Caaaa Ching !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
nwcycle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2013, 11:01 AM   #104
Sting32
Trials Evangelist
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Minneapolis, Ks
Oddometer: 1,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by nwcycle View Post
Well looks like there a be a total of 6 Venues next year.... 12 days
So anyone who wants to go, they are now looking at another weekend for that best of 7 now
Caaaa Ching !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You were talking about already established Nationals, right? not anything I said? just checking.
Sting32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2013, 12:19 PM   #105
dhubbard422
Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: Central Texas Hill Country
Oddometer: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by nwcycle View Post
Well looks like there a be a total of 6 Venues next year.... 12 days
So anyone who wants to go, they are now looking at another weekend for that best of 7 now
Caaaa Ching !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow... I've never heard that the NATC has any idea of who will really host a Nat'l until the annual meeting is actually underway. Even then (and I have attended this meeting a couple of times) I've heard it referred to as "Liar's Poker"... i.e. the "chairman" asks each club rep: "last year you said your club would (or might) host, so how is this year looking?"

Maybe the leadership is changing, or has changed, how the process works. I haven't attended in several years as I have a conflict with a charity trials that I host on the same weekend. However, when I have attended, clubs that want to host a Nat'l show up at the meeting and offer to host (or mumble something about maybe next year). It can be pretty random who shows up and wants to host an event for the coming season. The annual meeting is still almost 2 months away.

6 clubs willing to host would be a positive step IMO. Only a few years ago it was tough to find 3 or 4 that were willing to host and it wasn't always easy or possible to make the schedules work for those that were willing.

dhubbard422 screwed with this post 09-03-2013 at 01:23 PM
dhubbard422 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 03:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014