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Old 09-11-2013, 08:27 PM   #31
WayneC1
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A VR failure does not dump a LIFEPO with 30+ amps, the current is determined by the load

As for the LIFEPO's they handle high charging currents well where a conventional Lead Acid does not
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:02 PM   #32
Full Power
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Wayne, I think you have that backward: LeadAcid batteries DO tolerate high charge rates, where-as Lithium batteries explodewhen overcharged.
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:29 PM   #33
WayneC1
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No, check the specs on LIFEPO, they are designed to charge in a short period using high currents, that is what is needed for electric vehicles which is where their main usage is

Lead Acid optimum rates are 1/10 of rated AH capacity, they dont like high current charging
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:33 PM   #34
_cy_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
A VR failure does not dump a LIFEPO with 30+ amps, the current is determined by the load

As for the LIFEPO's they handle high charging currents well where a conventional Lead Acid does not
that depends on failure mode of regulator .. danger of permanent magnet charging systems if they put out full amps pretty much over idle. and yes if LiFePO4 battery is low they will easily swallow 30+ amps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Power View Post
Wayne, I think you have that backward: LeadAcid batteries DO tolerate high charge rates, where-as Lithium batteries explodewhen overcharged.
LiFePO4 batteries are li-ion but of a different chemistry from lithium cobalt used in Boeing 787. LiFePO4 has to be abused wildly to catch on fire ... like say charging at 39v at 30+ amps for an extended time period.

think water through a pipe.... voltage = pressure ... current = flow

if/when your regulator fails in wrong mode with stator still putting at max current .. depending on rpm 18v+ volts could be slammed into battery. 18v+ will push current into a fully charged battery .. LiFePO4 or lead acid with not good results.

apologies to OP .. did not mean to take this thread off topic ...
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:42 PM   #35
JRWooden OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
The OEM's have been reluctant to go to series pass VR's as the full current passes through the switch element and the most common failure is to go open circuit hence no charging and you are left stranded whereas with a shunt VR in a failure you still have an output charging the battery even though the voltage is high and hence you have a limp home mode (hoping the electronics is not damaged)
Thanks Wayne!

18V is lots better than 75V...

I'm even happier now with my decision to switch to the series R/R.
I have a voltage monitor installed:

http://f800riders.org/forum/showthre...mp-GPS-adapter

and I guess I'll just go with it ........... trade-offs everywhere....
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Old 09-11-2013, 10:08 PM   #36
WayneC1
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_CY_

Add resistance into your flow analogy

With a failed VR and full voltage to the battery/load the only current which flows is determined by the resistance of the load ie the electrical system
I (current) = V (Voltage) / R (Resistance)
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Old 09-11-2013, 10:29 PM   #37
_cy_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
_CY_

Add resistance into your flow analogy

With a failed VR and full voltage to the battery/load the only current which flows is determined by the resistance of the load ie the electrical system
I (current) = V (Voltage) / R (Resistance)
yup that's correct ... but at voltages put out by an unregulated stator will exceed any resistance put up by either lead acid or LiFePO4.

ALL charging systems designed to support PB puts out 13.8v to 14.2v range. specific models will deviate from those parameters, but not by much.

12v LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries reaches full charge at 14.6v ... after resting overnight will drop to about 14.25v .. with cell balancing about 13.85v range.

a PB AGM resting voltage is about 12.6v to 12.8v range and doesn't like being charged over 14.8v.

lower voltages pushes amps into PB slower same as LiFePO4.

let's say both PB and LiFePo4 are fully charged, at 14.2v .. current is still getting pushed into PB but not LiFePO4. during bulk phase of charging both chemistries will accept a higher rate of charge. with LiFePO4 due to low internal resistance, swallowing all the amps you throw at it. too high and LiFePO4 will overheat. then as either battery gets closer to full... amps absorbed will slow depending on voltage delivered at.

say a regulator has just failed with 18v+ voltage getting delivered to battery. that's enough volts to push current into any battery.. PB or LiFePO4... fully charged or not at 18v+ current is getting pushed into battery until failure.

this has gotten way too detailed for this thread ... need to continue this on my LiFePO4 battery testing thread. unless OP doesn't mind his thread getting hi-jacked...

_cy_ screwed with this post 09-11-2013 at 10:35 PM
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:46 PM   #38
GETTHUMPER2
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Question Any updates????

Hi JR Wooden,,,,
Have there been any new developments with this up-grade????
Is the unit still functioning to your satisfaction?????
Do you know of any other members that are running a series style regulator????
I am planning on getting the same unit that you have, I have been in touch with Jack.
Last month I tried a Compufire from Powersports Superstore via Amazon. It arrived defective, I saw voltage spikes in excess of 15 volts upon installation and first firing up my bike but then the voltage stabilized@ around 13 at idle, let the bike finish warming up while donning my helmet and gloves, went for a test ride to the grocery store and saw voltages in excess of 15 volts at surface street cruising speed (approx. 3000 rpm) with all electrical loads switched on and High beam on.
Removed the Compufire and contacted the seller, they told me I had to deal direct with Compufire and gave me some telephone #'s. All I ever got was an answering machine and never got a call back, very poor customer support and I will never recommend a Compufire.
I am going to try the CE 605 from Jack, he answers messages and seems like a real good guy based on my limited contact with him.
However I am still looking to learn more about this and there do not seem to be as many reviews on the CE unit as the Compufire. Oddly enough, the Compufire had many rave reviews stating great solid performance.
Best Regards,
THUMPER>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Old 09-26-2013, 08:41 PM   #39
JRWooden OP
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GH2:

I don't usually gush over vendors ... but I went with Jack for a couple reasons:

* he seemed very "invested" in what he was selling
* he was quick to answer my questions
* he said I could call him (evenings - he has a "day job") if I needed for help
* after watching the videos on his site I was convinced he was the real McCoy and knew WTF he was talking about ...
* most importantly ... he was the kind of entrepreneur that I felt I should financially support....

I should also mention that I thought his unit was a better mechanical fit into the loation of the OEM R/R then the CompuFire. ......

I've put about 5,000 more miles on the bike since I installed Jack's unit, and have had ZERO issues. I bought the bike new, and it now has ~35K miles total. I am tempted to pull the stator side-cover and see what the damn stator looks like but have so far resisted the dark side of the force.

Reaver would be proud

(Confession: I do have a side cover gasket in the garage).

Since installing it, I've not gone back for more oscilloscope testing, but can't imagine it has changed ... but I could be wrong.

I have a voltage monitor installed - documented here:

http://f800riders.org/forum/showthre...mp-GPS-adapter

I'm sure would NOT catch any fast transient voltages to 15V, but would certainly let me know if the voltage regulation was defective for a longer period of time -- I've seen nothing on the monitor.

I could be a stupid dumb-ass dragging others down my path to failure, but so far I'm a very happy camper, and in my book Jack is a stand-up kick-ass guy.

If I ever get anywhere near Torrance, CA I'll take him out for dinner and some beers ...
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Old 01-12-2014, 10:51 AM   #40
_cy_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gstreff View Post
Here is an interesting reply to an email inquiry to ElectroSport about their redesigned stator for the F8 and the regulator to go with it.

Hello,The part does have some design changes. The output is on par with the OEM unit, but it does run cooler for a couple of reasons. The main reason is the quality of the copper wire used on this one stator is extremely pure copper. Most of our stators we sell for around $150, this one is a bit more expensive at about $200 because of the extra material cost of the copper. You really can not find more pure copper for a winding application like this. The result is a lower internal resistance and less heat produced. Also, the winding configuration is tweaked a bit to produce more voltage and a bit less amperage, which helps reduce heat as well. Along with some higher temp insulation, the part ends up dealing with the heat it does produce more effectively than the OEM version.

The OEM reg/rect would be perfectly suited for this bike. No need to try the goofy series/switching reg/rect, our stator will fix the overheating issue at its source.

Kyle Wood - Sales Manager
-------------------------------------
Procom Engineering / ElectroSport

21 Brookline, Aliso Viejo, CA 92656
PH: (949) 305-4200
www.electrosport.com
caught in another thread .. almost 10k miles on with no issues with series type R/R. that's really good news for F8 folks .. bad news for Stator sales .. no wonder stator mfg earlier in this thread called series type R/R goofy.

_cy_ screwed with this post 01-12-2014 at 11:21 AM
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Old 01-13-2014, 09:44 AM   #41
GETTHUMPER2
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Thumb ++++1 ON Cycle Electric Series style R/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
caught in another thread .. almost 10k miles on with no issues with series type R/R. that's really good news for F8 folks .. bad news for Stator sales .. no wonder stator mfg earlier in this thread called series type R/R goofy.
Hi Cy,,,
Not BMW, but none the less a bike with a history from day 1 of eating stators.
I am one of the VStar 650 riders that has been through multiple Stators and several R/R's, both OEM and Electrosport.
In October of 2013 I finally stepped up and installed the CE 605 from Jack @ Roadstercycle and due to limited funds, the cheapest aftermarket stator that I could find on EBay.
Happy to report that this combo has been trouble free for over 3,000 miles.
The stator cover runs perceptively cooler, MPG has risen slightly, and the charging voltage is now a more or less consistent 14.1 to 14.5 volts depending on load.
My absolutely unscientific and non-professional opinion is that the Series style reg/rect is currently the best way to go and is far superior to the OEM shunt style R/R's.
Best Regards,
THUMPER>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Old 01-13-2014, 12:55 PM   #42
_cy_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
A VR failure does not dump a LIFEPO with 30+ amps, the current is determined by the load

As for the LIFEPO's they handle high charging currents well where a conventional Lead Acid does not
two possible VR failure modes ... one either go dead or go completely unregulated .. up to 75v or high enough to kill any battery PB or LiFePo4...

LiFePO4 has extremely low internal resistance, hence why a tiny LiFePO4 can deliver a massive amount of current. this property goes both directions .. meaning if/when LiFePO4 is in a low state of charge or bulk charge mode. LiFePO4 will swallow all the amps you throw at it. for an LC8 with 450 watt alternator less overhead = about 23 amps delivered to battery.

max charge rate is expressed in C = amp hour (actual) ... LiFePo4 cell mfg spec max charge rate of 4C ... say Shorai LFX18 with 5AH actual is slammed by 23 amp when battery is low from sitting a month. say battery is at 5% state of charge and barely starts. charge rate would be slightly over 4C or still within safe range.

for motorcycles like R1200GS with 720 watt output .. less overhead would be 37amp to battery or 7C with tiny 5AH battery or way too high ... lots of melted LiFePO4 batteries have resulted from this scenario

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Old 04-03-2014, 08:57 PM   #43
KennyLoggins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TowPro View Post
What is the difference in voltage measured in the input of the New vrs Old regulator? This would be the voltage seen on the windings.

Interested to see the differance on a fully charged battery with all ACC's turned off.
I've been doing a lot of reading on this topic and I bumped into an interesting pdf with someone that did a comparative trace between a Compu-Fire series R/R and a Mosfet Shunt style R/R. I'm curious to get everyone's take on this (particularly JoelWisman):

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/4066...3k?da=y&dnad=y

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Old 04-03-2014, 09:15 PM   #44
JRWooden OP
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Disclaimer: I'm not the dumbest guy on the block when it comes to electronics, but I'm certainly not the smartest either .........

I've seen some of those graphs in another place ...

The compufire or the http://roadstercycle.com/index.htm that I used are quite different in design than the OEM units shunt vs. series.

While the series style do place higher voltages on the stator the heating is considerably lower (unless you are demanding max output from the stator). I was at a friend's house when I took my Oscope readings and in the interest of time we only did the system side traces not stator-side.

I was most worried about screwing up the CAN-Bus or the BMSK.
Since the series style appears "quieter" (less electrical noise) on the system side, I decided that the worst case was that the voltage spikes would break down the dielectric value of the insulation of the stator, but probably not as quickly as the heating ....

I've put ~10K miles on my bike since the conversion and have not had any issues. If you have any specific questions (that a dufus can answer) I'll give it a go
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Old 04-03-2014, 09:41 PM   #45
GETTHUMPER2
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Thumb Another Series RR Convert

Hi All,,,
Installed the Roadstercycle CE 605 nearly 7000 miles ago.
It is still performing flawlessly, as is the cheap Chinese knock-off stator that was installed at the same time.
Just an FYI, Go with the unit from Jack @ Roadstercycle, I had an absolutely horrible experience with the Compufire and Spike, the company that makes/distributes it.
Jack on the other hand is a 1st rate A#1 guy, always calls back and answers E mails, always willing to answer any questions, and is always helpful with any installation, he sets the bar for Excellent Customer Support.
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