ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Old's Cool > Airheads
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-25-2013, 04:22 AM   #46
Plaka
Brevis illi vita est
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Oddometer: 4,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warin View Post
You are relying on base to collector leakage for your 'test' to work .. any improvements in the output device and a good sensor can fail your 'test'.

The sensor is designed to work with an external pull up ... and does not care what it is connected to .. but required an external pull up to function correctly.


-------------------
chasbmw - I was replying to your post saying a crank mounted sensor could be used as a redundant replacement for a bean can ... and it cannot .. unless your bean can has no mechanical advance? Or are you saying you have TWO crank mounted sensors? In which case TWO hall effect switches inside the bean can would do the same job - a redundant sensor... same as two crank mounted sensors...
Where are you getting this external pullup stuff? From the guy that made the tester box?
Plaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 06:58 AM   #47
_cy_
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warin View Post
You are relying on base to collector leakage for your 'test' to work .. any improvements in the output device and a good sensor can fail your 'test'.

The sensor is designed to work with an external pull up ... and does not care what it is connected to .. but required an external pull up to function correctly.
gotta disagree, test is valid as is .. that's not to say addition components cannot be added.

objective of test is simple .. all I'm testing for is if signal leg on halls module outputs a signal when magnetic rotor passes closeby. confirming precise location of rotor exactly like a crank angle sensor.

look closely at block diagram's 3 leads not in order ...

1. positive lead to power module
2. negative lead to provide ground
3. output lead sinks to ground resulting in milliamp/millivolt signal

all this test has done for me is confirm futility of depending on a 30 year old halls sensor on an extended trip. anyone deep into a beancan should replace module even if it's still working.

which confirms even further my preference for beancan with points!!!

_cy_ screwed with this post 09-25-2013 at 07:35 AM
_cy_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 07:38 AM   #48
Plaka
Brevis illi vita est
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Oddometer: 4,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
gotta disagree, test is valid as is .. that's not to say addition components cannot be added.

objective of test is simple .. all I'm testing for is if signal leg on halls module outputs a signal when magnetic rotor passes closeby. confirming precise location of rotor exactly like a crank angle sensor.

look closely at block diagram's 3 leads not in order ...

1. positive lead to power module
2. negative lead to provide ground
3. output lead sinks to ground resulting in milliamp/millivolt signal

all this test has done for me is confirm futility of depending on a 30 year old halls sensor on an extended trip. anyone deep into a beancan should replace module even if it's still working.

which confirms even further my preference for beancan with points!!!
No offence but...stick to points.

"deep into a beancan" isn't. I can go in, change out the advance weights and be out in 15 minutes. Another 5 has it installed and the timing set. Replacing costly parts that work fine is pointless (so to speak).
Plaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 08:53 AM   #49
_cy_
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaka View Post
No offence but...stick to points.

"deep into a beancan" isn't. I can go in, change out the advance weights and be out in 15 minutes. Another 5 has it installed and the timing set. Replacing costly parts that work fine is pointless (so to speak).
no offense taken ... got my choice of beancan with halls or points. can't tell much if any difference in performance. points for me .. halls for you .. choice is good.

down to advance weights and back together in 15 minutes is pretty good

for folks like me who would rather not go back in again. one is much better off changing out a 30 year old halls module vs putting it back in .. here's one for $23 in ebay.

according to Honeywell engineers, original halls module are good for millions of cycles .. 30 years later it's not the number of trigger cycles causing failures. but more likely the number of heat cycles that's causing failures.

also called a universal cam angle sensor
here's a few part number crosses:

Honeywell 2AV54
Siemens HKZ101
Bosch 1237011052.
BB Automacao CYHME56

_cy_ screwed with this post 09-25-2013 at 09:22 AM
_cy_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 10:35 AM   #50
supershaft
because I can
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Oddometer: 8,781
I meant to quote chasbmw here but . . . .

What's wrong with the mechanical setup? It works perfectly and I can adjust it a lot closer to what I want versus many electronic advances. According to BMW the mechanical advances stick and whatnot. I have been looking for that while working on a LOT of bikes every since that bulletin came out. With a few rare exceptions, I do not see them failing in any way. The people selling aftermarket setups like to throw the mechanical setup under the bus since the part that usually fails in a bean can is the same electronic component they use in their setup. Just give it 30 years.
supershaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 11:10 AM   #51
bill42
Old-School BMWs
 
bill42's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: Long Island, NY
Oddometer: 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
I meant to quote chasbmw here but . . . .

What's wrong with the mechanical setup? It works perfectly and I can adjust it a lot closer to what I want versus many electronic advances. According to BMW the mechanical advances stick and whatnot. I have been looking for that while working on a LOT of bikes every since that bulletin came out. With a few rare exceptions, I do not see them failing in any way. The people selling aftermarket setups like to throw the mechanical setup under the bus since the part that usually fails in a bean can is the same electronic component they use in their setup. Just give it 30 years.
OK, I'll give my after market full electronic beancan 30 years to fail. Oh wait. I'll be dead by then.
I admire the enthusiasm of the OP who gathered 5 old very-used beancans and is using his impressive engineering skills to choose or mix-match/fix the best one, but again, this really is illogical. My father was an electrical engineer college professor, so I am very familiar with how even the most knowledgeable people can loose sight of logic in the interest of the feel-good high of fixing everything themselves. This is generally a good thing, by all means, especially with old machines where you can't buy many parts new or the new parts are not as good as the old ones. But in this case, why install some beancan with vastly warn mechanical advance parts and tempt fate? $300 is not a lot to spend for something that both makes your bike run better AND is far more reliable than an old warn used mechanical bean can. And since the odds are, it will last 30 years zero tuning necessary, you can feel safe riding around the world like you all do.
I spoke with my source who has rebuilt and tuned far more beancans than anyone on this thread- I am 99% sure of this as this has been his living for a long time but now he deals only with solid state ignitions. Sorry if I trust his experience over yours that while the old sensors fail, it is also a fact that the mechanical parts in the sealed beancans from 1981+ also wear excessively after 30 years.
__________________
Bill C.
On The Level BMW Club magazine photo editor / Art Director
1981 BMW R100 Café build thread
1958 BMW R50 aka: A BMW Motorcycle Story (link)

bill42 screwed with this post 09-25-2013 at 11:44 AM
bill42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 01:45 PM   #52
supershaft
because I can
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Oddometer: 8,781
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill42 View Post
OK, I'll give my after market full electronic beancan 30 years to fail. Oh wait. I'll be dead by then.
I admire the enthusiasm of the OP who gathered 5 old very-used beancans and is using his impressive engineering skills to choose or mix-match/fix the best one, but again, this really is illogical. My father was an electrical engineer college professor, so I am very familiar with how even the most knowledgeable people can loose sight of logic in the interest of the feel-good high of fixing everything themselves. This is generally a good thing, by all means, especially with old machines where you can't buy many parts new or the new parts are not as good as the old ones. But in this case, why install some beancan with vastly warn mechanical advance parts and tempt fate? $300 is not a lot to spend for something that both makes your bike run better AND is far more reliable than an old warn used mechanical bean can. And since the odds are, it will last 30 years zero tuning necessary, you can feel safe riding around the world like you all do.
I spoke with my source who has rebuilt and tuned far more beancans than anyone on this thread- I am 99% sure of this as this has been his living for a long time but now he deals only with solid state ignitions. Sorry if I trust his experience over yours that while the old sensors fail, it is also a fact that the mechanical parts in the sealed beancans from 1981+ also wear excessively after 30 years.
It's a fact that they CAN wear excessively after 30 years. In my experience as a professional BMW motorcycle mechanic, they very rarely do. I haven't rebuilt that many bean cans but I have tuned more than most anyone I know of since most all BMW mechanics that I know don't adjust a bean cans advance curve for thinking it is nonadjustable. It sounds like your advance was messed up and that a new unit did you some good. Great but some might think from your report that they all do that and that is not right. The part that usually fails in them in my experience is the same part that will probably fail in your aftermarket ignition. That is if the electronic advance holds up as well as most mechanical advances do and doesn't malfunction before the HES does.

Gathering old bean cans? I have done the same thing while working at different dealerships. I probably collected around 15 'bad' cans. There was nothing wrong with half of them. I sold them for real cheap with a one year money back guarantee. None of them came back. But I am not selling anything here. I am just trying to point out that many a bean can can be repaired for $30 bucks versus $300 or whatever for a replacement and that, despite all the idiotnet and BMW service bulletin hype, I don't see very much trouble with the mechanical advance and that BMW bulletin came out a LONG time ago.
supershaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 02:37 PM   #53
bill42
Old-School BMWs
 
bill42's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: Long Island, NY
Oddometer: 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
It's a fact that they CAN wear excessively after 30 years. In my experience as a professional BMW motorcycle mechanic, they very rarely do. I haven't rebuilt that many bean cans but I have tuned more than most anyone I know of since most all BMW mechanics that I know don't adjust a bean cans advance curve for thinking it is nonadjustable. It sounds like your advance was messed up and that a new unit did you some good. Great but some might think from your report that they all do that and that is not right. The part that usually fails in them in my experience is the same part that will probably fail in your aftermarket ignition. That is if the electronic advance holds up as well as most mechanical advances do and doesn't malfunction before the HES does.

Gathering old bean cans? I have done the same thing while working at different dealerships. I probably collected around 15 'bad' cans. There was nothing wrong with half of them. I sold them for real cheap with a one year money back guarantee. None of them came back. But I am not selling anything here. I am just trying to point out that many a bean can can be repaired for $30 bucks versus $300 or whatever for a replacement and that, despite all the idiotnet and BMW service bulletin hype, I don't see very much trouble with the mechanical advance and that BMW bulletin came out a LONG time ago.
Thanks for explaining more details above, and it is certainly feasible that my situation was unique although apparently many others have had problems with sticking weights as I have found many such references when I was searching for info on the web. But, we are all familiar with the phenomenon of how web posts exaggerate the ratio of failures in any product since nobody posts when their product is running great.
I followed a disassembly thread I found somewhere to take apart my "non-servicable" bean can just to have a look inside, and that particular thread didn't suggest how one went about doing repairs other than cleaning and lubing the parts. When you go about fixing or tuning the ones you work on, are you able to add new springs or other parts that are worn? I was under the impression that none of these parts are stocked anywhere.
__________________
Bill C.
On The Level BMW Club magazine photo editor / Art Director
1981 BMW R100 Café build thread
1958 BMW R50 aka: A BMW Motorcycle Story (link)
bill42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 03:40 PM   #54
_cy_
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,878
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill42 View Post
Thanks for explaining more details above, and it is certainly feasible that my situation was unique although apparently many others have had problems with sticking weights as I have found many such references when I was searching for info on the web. But, we are all familiar with the phenomenon of how web posts exaggerate the ratio of failures in any product since nobody posts when their product is running great.
I followed a disassembly thread I found somewhere to take apart my "non-servicable" bean can just to have a look inside, and that particular thread didn't suggest how one went about doing repairs other than cleaning and lubing the parts. When you go about fixing or tuning the ones you work on, are you able to add new springs or other parts that are worn? I was under the impression that none of these parts are stocked anywhere.
here's how you tear into your Beancan from the top without driving out bottom pin, which is usually really tight.

remove top plate and bearing support. then remove large clip underneath.


remove side cap and disconnect advance springs.


remove two circlips, then remove three side screws. when everything is free. remove entire rotor/halls module as one assembly.


remove plastic plug that fastens wiring


if you don't disconnect springs first. springs will let go but might get stretched.


don't even think about removing thin rotor without a puller. the el cheapo battery terminal puller works perfect. take extra care not to loose tiny locator pin.


this is what you see after rotor is removed


early style has two screws, later has two rivets. someone has been here before me
drill out rivets and attach new Halls module taking care to splice/solder/shrink wrap wires to same length.


reassembly is NOT the same as removal. remove last circlip, separate center shaft from halls plate. service advance weight sparingly with a light high quality oil. then insert center shaft, then attach both springs while you have easy access to springs. otherwise it's almost impossible to reattach springs from tiny side cover hole.


next insert hall module plate, carefully aligning up with three screw holes. this pic is shown with old sensor.


replace rotor and carefully drive locator pin with a pin punch.


replace both circlips


install top large circlip and outer cap ... use a tiny dab of grease when installing top bearing plate.


Fin ..

_cy_ screwed with this post 09-25-2013 at 04:14 PM
_cy_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 07:03 PM   #55
supershaft
because I can
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Oddometer: 8,781
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill42 View Post
Thanks for explaining more details above, and it is certainly feasible that my situation was unique although apparently many others have had problems with sticking weights as I have found many such references when I was searching for info on the web. But, we are all familiar with the phenomenon of how web posts exaggerate the ratio of failures in any product since nobody posts when their product is running great.
I followed a disassembly thread I found somewhere to take apart my "non-servicable" bean can just to have a look inside, and that particular thread didn't suggest how one went about doing repairs other than cleaning and lubing the parts. When you go about fixing or tuning the ones you work on, are you able to add new springs or other parts that are worn? I was under the impression that none of these parts are stocked anywhere.
It's been a productive discussion IMO. There is one other for sure case of sticking or f'ed up weights here on ADVR that I can think of (other than massively corroded weights due to submersion). It does happen. It just isn't nearly as prevalent as many claim. Many 'stuck weights' are not stuck weights. It's carb adjustment, timing, etc.. I have seen that play out many times over.

The only thing I have ever repaired in them is the HES. I have some springs that a local guy sells since he gave them to me close to 15 years ago. I told him back then that I rarely see them needing replaced. I haven't seen any that needed replacing since he gave me those.

Tuning? The only tuning I can think of is adjusting the timing curve via the weight stops. You do not need to go to all the trouble Plaka did. The stops are very soft and bendable. Plaka's setup looks like something to fly apart in my experience but . . . so does a lot of his stuff.

None of those parts have ever been stocked but I have never needed any other than the HES.

I have never needed a puller to remove the HES window either but . . . .

supershaft screwed with this post 09-25-2013 at 07:14 PM
supershaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2013, 11:58 PM   #56
Wirespokes
Beemerholics Anonymous
 
Wirespokes's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2002
Location: Jackson's Bottom Oregon
Oddometer: 8,014
I've repaired a few bean cans - maybe ten of them, and the problems have been either the wiring in a few cases or usually the hall sensors. Usually the sensors still 'sense', but the plastic deteriorated and the hall sensor came 'unglued' from its mounting or the magnet fell off, or something like that.

I haven't seen a bad advance mechanism yet. And the mechanisms were still tight - no sloppy shafts or anything that appeared worn or worn out. But the black foam stuff glued to the cover usually disintegrates and coats everything inside. Get rid of it!

I'll also add to the discussion by saying that Rick at Motorrad considered the points bean can to be the best BMW ignition until he developed his current offering. Doesn't his new ignition have an easily replaceable Hall Sensor? (I think that's what I heard...)
__________________
Wanted: Dead, smashed, crashed or trashed gauges
BMW GAUGE REPAIRS - TACH*SPEEDO*CLOCK*VOLT METER *PODs & LIGHT BOARD*
Wirespokes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2013, 02:55 PM   #57
supershaft
because I can
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Oddometer: 8,781
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirespokes View Post
I've repaired a few bean cans - maybe ten of them, and the problems have been either the wiring in a few cases or usually the hall sensors. Usually the sensors still 'sense', but the plastic deteriorated and the hall sensor came 'unglued' from its mounting or the magnet fell off, or something like that.

I haven't seen a bad advance mechanism yet. And the mechanisms were still tight - no sloppy shafts or anything that appeared worn or worn out. But the black foam stuff glued to the cover usually disintegrates and coats everything inside. Get rid of it!

I'll also add to the discussion by saying that Rick at Motorrad considered the points bean can to be the best BMW ignition until he developed his current offering. Doesn't his new ignition have an easily replaceable Hall Sensor? (I think that's what I heard...)
Pretty much my point. I still find it amusing that the best ignition setup from BMW (the points bean can) has the same mechanical advance that Rick and others point out as the wink link in the HES bean can. The facts in the matter point out that the mechanical advance is not an issue in both type cans but, since Rick's and others' aftermarket systems uses the exact same component that most often fails in the BMW HES bean can, something had to give and that 'something' is the mechanical advance. At least according to sales hype. I hope the HES IS easier to replace in Rick's can. Then it actually WILL be better. Around 30 years from now but . . . . That is IF the electronic advance holds up as well as the mechanical advance usually does. In the mean time, his electronic advance and many others do not offer many options that might actually work best from my experience and others as far as what a lot of people have found fine tuning the mechanical setup for best power on dyno's. After all, most people have found real close to the same thing along those lines. Usually IMO depending on how you personally line up the reference points.

Yes, it is usually the HES that fails in bean cans. That being said and understood, I think HES's are WAY more reliable and better performing than points. I would guess that around 99.99% of everybody would agree. NO ONE races with points. Except maybe some vintage racers that can't afford any better? Hopefully they know better?

supershaft screwed with this post 09-27-2013 at 03:03 PM
supershaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 01:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014