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Old 10-08-2013, 03:54 PM   #16
mdubya
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Originally Posted by ZLTFUL View Post
I really find it distasteful that you assume the worst from my statement instead if asking me outright whether or not that is what I meant. Frankly, I was referring to him being penalized for pushing too hard and being the cause of someone else's crash. Given a couple more laps, he could have easily dispensed with Dani in a much safer manner and continued to decimate Jorge.

A penalty would bring the realization that he is indeed endangering others unnecessarily. Maybe not as overtly blatantly like Bautista has but he has been nonetheless.
I merely took your statement at face value. Revisionist. : )
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Old 10-08-2013, 03:57 PM   #17
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Not at all. Definitely could have been misconstrued that way but not my intent nor was my purpose to instigate an argument.
Dorna saw fit to hold off any decision until the "hearing" at Sepang. Hence my reference.

Besides, Marc was just as aggressive in Moto2 and has yet to be bitten by the "unforgiving" Sepang Circuit...why would it be any different on a bike with 84848284 more rider aids?
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:00 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by ZLTFUL View Post
.why would it be any different on a bike with 84848284 more rider aids?

Because its human nature to use things that are supposed to "help" to get yourself in ten times deeper trouble.
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:18 PM   #19
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Besides, Marc was just as aggressive in Moto2 and has yet to be bitten by the "unforgiving" Sepang Circuit...
Actually, he knocked himself out of the end of the 2011 season and his future was in doubt right up to the start of the 2012 season. He crashed on a wet corner (at Sepang) where they had a local shower and he suffered blurred vision which even required an operation in the off season.
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:41 PM   #20
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Getting harder and harder to bet against Marquez as the winner, but I'm going for Rossi on the top spot of the podium this coming weekend.

Me too Tezza. And the weekend after...... Never thought I'd be rootin for VR 46, but I guess us old codgers have to stick together. Right?
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:03 PM   #21
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Me too Tezza. And the weekend after...... Never thought I'd be rootin for VR 46, but I guess us old codgers have to stick together. Right?
Damn straight Boots, we gotta stick together and root for the "old" guys like VR!
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Old 10-08-2013, 06:41 PM   #22
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Getting harder and harder to bet against Marquez as the winner, but I'm going for Rossi on the top spot of the podium this coming weekend.

Bookies are making a killing out of people with your optimism

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Old 10-08-2013, 09:46 PM   #23
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Actually, he knocked himself out of the end of the 2011 season and his future was in doubt right up to the start of the 2012 season. He crashed on a wet corner (at Sepang) where they had a local shower and he suffered blurred vision which even required an operation in the off season.
That one actually went to the track marshals, who failed to show any flags. It was first lap out of the pits, and several others went down very badly at that corner, too.
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:10 PM   #24
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Bookies are making a killing out of people with your optimism

Various online gambling sites are offering 18:1 on Rossi for the win at Sepang.

Best for Marquez are 6:5.


A couple of months ago I thought Rossi looked a good bet for the championship at 50:1. After Assen he shortened to 33, IIRC.

Now you can get 500:1 on Rossi for the title. And 33:1 for Pedrosa.
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:25 PM   #25
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I really find it distasteful that you assume the worst from my statement instead if asking me outright whether or not that is what I meant. Frankly, I was referring to him being penalized for pushing too hard and being the cause of someone else's crash. Given a couple more laps, he could have easily dispensed with Dani in a much safer manner and continued to decimate Jorge.

A penalty would bring the realization that he is indeed endangering others unnecessarily. Maybe not as overtly blatantly like Bautista has but he has been nonetheless.
You can't pin Dani's highside on Marquez for two reasons..

1) There is NO FRIGGING WAY that Marquez could have wanted to a hit Perdrosa's bike with his front wheel, you don't want anything EVER hitting your front wheel, that is why racers tell that if you ever think you are going to bump fairings make damn sure your pegs are first.

2) How was there no failsafe or indicator that the rear wheel sensor was gone? I get lights all over the place if my truck throws a sesnor, and you are telling me that there is no indicator on something as over-engineered as a MotoGP bike?

I'm not a huge Marquez fan, but you can't even say the move was over aggressive, Dani slammed the door on Marquez and pushed him clear off the track and THEN punted himself if what I remember was at all accurate.
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:04 AM   #26
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2) How was there no failsafe or indicator that the rear wheel sensor was gone? I get lights all over the place if my truck throws a sesnor, and you are telling me that there is no indicator on something as over-engineered as a MotoGP bike?
It is entirely possible, that there is some sort of warning light in the instrument panel. But noticing in the heat of the race, that such a light has come on, and what it means, in those few seconds, that Dani had between the contact and the highside, is practically impossible. I´m also betting, that it is a very VERY rare occurrence, that your traction control system quits in the middle of the race.

The vulnerable design of the sensor wire, and having no TC failsafe mode (considering the above, I don´t consider “Switch Directly to Full Power” to be such a mode!) are two things, that seem to have caught HRC engineers by surprise.
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:35 AM   #27
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Of course its going to default to WFO.

This isn't a bike that Honda is worried about getting a lawsuit on (wanna bet that if it were a CBR it would go to full on rain mode) this is arguably the fastest road course motorcycle ever built with two of the very best riders in the world on it. There is no limp mode. If there is an indicator than at best all you can count one is a light. Throwing into limp mode would mean losing points. That being said "traction control issues" cause riders down all the time. Now whether they are senor related or not, I've no idea, but for ECMs that run predictive and adaptive mappings they HAVE to have a sensor check and sanity check.

Eithe rway, my point wasn't about the actual operation of the TC rider aid features, it was more about the idea that Marquez would need to be sanctioned. The very idea is ridiculous, it was a freak incident, if the contact hadn't manged to ONLY take out that wire without either rider going down that would be one thing, but that wasn't what happened that was two guys racing.
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:54 AM   #28
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Of course its going to default to WFO.

This isn't a bike that Honda is worried about getting a lawsuit on (wanna bet that if it were a CBR it would go to full on rain mode) this is arguably the fastest road course motorcycle ever built with two of the very best riders in the world on it. There is no limp mode. If there is an indicator than at best all you can count one is a light. Throwing into limp mode would mean losing points.
Well, throwing the rider sky-high can mean losing points, AND a few broken bones, which is even worse. Wasn´t very far in DP´s case, he did take a big knock.

How about flashing a bright light on the cockpit for, say, 10 seconds, and during this time, the power is cut (....and actually they might not even have to cut top-end horsepower, but rather adjust for a bit softer power delivery, so the rider has a better chance of keeping the machine under control). Even if the rider does not see the light on the cockpit, when turning the throttle grip, he will feel that the engine does not respond in the same way, and becomes aware that something is wrong. Then after 10 seconds, the light stops flashing, but stays on, and NOW you are back to full power? The problem was, there was not enough time to communicate anything to the rider, so no TC + full power straight away was a hopeless situation.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:06 AM   #29
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Like I said freak thing.

Not something that should be sanctioned. I know I see the indicators for my bike when I'm on the track, hell there is a corner where I intentionally redline 3th gear and use that to "quickshift" at a full lean. I start loading the shifter when I see the shift lights kick on.

....and I'm just an advanced level trackday guy.
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:43 AM   #30
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I'm not a huge Marquez fan, but you can't even say the move was over aggressive, Dani slammed the door on Marquez and pushed him clear off the track and THEN punted himself if what I remember was at all accurate.
First, I am intentionally ignoring your reasons. The first, I somewhat agree with you having banged fairings at relatively high club level racing. And the second, I fully agree with you with the caveat that even if he had warning indicators, the timing was too quick to have done anything except get pitched into low earth orbit.

But having re-watched the incident, I will address the quoted part.
Dani was on the racing line. He was taking a slightly defensive line but by no means slammed the door on Marc. Marc was very hot into the turn and was already running wide well before he had even started to tip in...heavy braking...
He then proceeded to square off the corner in an attempt to salvage as much as he could from the incident. The abrupt line change just happened to bring him back around and into the back of Dani's bike. The "racing incident" ( and I completely agree that it was a fluke at best) was fully on Marc as Dani was taking the same defensive lines that he has used virtually all season when pressured by Marc.

As I said, I don't argue that the incident was a complete fluke. But I do argue that Marc has made many questionable passing calls through the season when it was obvious given another lap or two, it was obvious he had the pace to make a much more calculated and "safe" pass.
Just my HO...not meant as fact or to incite the wrath and ire of those who are seemingly much more in the know than I appear to be.
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