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Old 10-15-2013, 05:24 AM   #1576
tehdutchie
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Great research and development on this!

One point from my side, as is clearly shown from the video, the 'shell' of the roadbook will take the force and then either bend (permanently or not) or break.

The same will probably happen to the insert with a larger chance of breaking then bending. Since the materials used inside the roadbook tend to be 'harder' / more breakable.

How are you covering for this? Or, what is the point in having a 'bendy' outer shell that breaks all internal components?
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Old 10-15-2013, 05:44 AM   #1577
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Switch put on the back burner for now. Had to return my laptop that had solidworks on it and kid #2 was born three months ago. I need to do some redesigning of the shape as machining costs were cost prohibitive in aluminium which I would prefer. Also need to come up with some better options for scrolling the roadbook as I'm not sure on the reliability of those kiddo switches. I still intend on working on this, just put on hold for now.
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Old 10-15-2013, 06:01 AM   #1578
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Hey Gany,

Congrats on the kiddo ,

Quote:
Originally Posted by tehdutchie View Post
Great research and development on this!

One point from my side, as is clearly shown from the video, the 'shell' of the roadbook will take the force and then either bend (permanently or not) or break.

The same will probably happen to the insert with a larger chance of breaking then bending. Since the materials used inside the roadbook tend to be 'harder' / more breakable.

How are you covering for this? Or, what is the point in having a 'bendy' outer shell that breaks all internal components?

Good points and that is actually what happens in reality.
The design plays a very important role here. Carefully placing parts inside the ''shell'' and fixing them in the right places with the right fixings will have a big effect on how they perform. Mk1 internals will first move out of the way as the shell is compressed. Then, when the gap is exhausted, the internals will deform in a controlled manner. There are times that with bent internals, Mk1 will be fully functional to get to the bivouac. Then, if the deformation is larger, the cartridge will collapse. Not all of it though. Certain parts that are designed to collapse. Then, the rider will be forced to replace either the whole cartridge, or certain pieces of it. Bear in mind that in the Video you see a 3mm vac part ''shell'' . Mk1 will be different, as we are now heading towards injection molding. Therefore the sides of the ''shell'' will be different thickness to the rest of the part.
Will it perform better in crashes than a similar Holder made out of Aluminium? Well, I can safely say yes. During this hit, all you had to do is to change a cartridge. In the alu part, you would be forced to get a new unit. Therefore it is a combination of things (as always...) not just the ''flexible shell''.... We have made the same impact with half the load. The cartridge was damaged (it actually bends) but it continued to be operational.

To see what I mean by the internals moving out of the way,


And remember that these are stationary tests were the roadbook takes a direct hit. In reality, the tower will absorb some percentage of the impact forces and it will bend, the mounting bracket will play its role etc...
The plan is to make more tests, get more data out of the data loggers and build something which suits the Rally area. Imagine that JayBo's dataloggers hit 11g at some point...

Till later,
D.
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Old 10-15-2013, 06:09 AM   #1579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 640 Armageddon View Post
The plan is to make more tests, get more data out of the data loggers and build something which suits the Rally area. Imagine that JayBo's dataloggers hit 11g at some point...

Till later,
D.
... and my foot and hand hit 11.1g and broke. You might have to find a different test dummy for more of those crash tests mate!

EDIT: Just watching that torture test again Dimitri, and I can't get over how there is no vibration and movement on the paper when riding and reading over rough terrain. It was one of the comments I made of an unexpected benefit that the paper stays so still and becomes so much easier to read than the MD unit. Yet it is obviously capable of so much movement. Be interesting to have a high speed camera video the Mark1 scroll during riding rough terrain and comparing it with an MD. Maybe an impossible test to conduct.
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Old 10-15-2013, 06:11 AM   #1580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBo1 View Post
... and my foot and hand hit 11.1g and broke. You might have to find a different test dummy for more of those crash tests mate!


It's nice to find people that are willing to go to this extent to test the equipment
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Old 10-15-2013, 07:21 AM   #1581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBo1 View Post
EDIT: Just watching that torture test again Dimitri, and I can't get over how there is no vibration and movement on the paper when riding and reading over rough terrain. It was one of the comments I made of an unexpected benefit that the paper stays so still and becomes so much easier to read than the MD unit. Yet it is obviously capable of so much movement. Be interesting to have a high speed camera video the Mark1 scroll during riding rough terrain and comparing it with an MD. Maybe an impossible test to conduct.
Just saw the EDIT,
Nothing impossible here
We have a high speed camera, and the test bike will be up and running soon. I managed to crash also (the things that we do for science... ) and the Berg needs some attention.... . This particular high speed will not do it, but I have another high speed exilim which with some fiddling around will fit the GoPro mounts.... It will be good to see how the thing behaves in slow motion.

Another lab test is in order
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Old 10-15-2013, 08:10 AM   #1582
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Originally Posted by 640 Armageddon View Post


It's nice to find people that are willing to go to this extent to test the equipment
Love the direction you're going in Dimitri and the thoroughness of the tests, but I'm sure you could have told Jaybo going into the test that 10g's was probably enough.

I think plastic, while being thought of as cheap, is a better choice for survivability and durability as well as replacement cost. A case like yours when thoughtfully designed like your are with those parameters, crush zones, varying wall thicknesses and such will result in a much better and survivable product then any aluminum model out there.

The new CF KTM towers are very impressive and with a whole factory behind them, spares in the truck as well as team mates bikes to step onto if you demolish yours, KTM can do it, but who else can. With so much riding on each race for them you just know the second a mechanic even suspects the parts have been compromised they will be replaced. If Coma DNF's a race because a part with a known issue fails, heads would roll. At their level you don't just "wing it".



Thanks for the pic Dimitri,

Would like to know the % of the Dakar riders would come close to having that advantage and depth of spares, let alone one of us that just want to do a roadbook rally, so there should be a large market for something like your MK1 holder that's well engineered and tested.
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Old 10-15-2013, 08:14 AM   #1583
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Originally Posted by 640 Armageddon View Post
First, apologies for that, I am not trying to fool anybody, just trying to add to the knowledge pool with whatever means I have.
A scientific experiment would replicate the results every single time. The video, is not ''scientific'' in that sense. We dropped the weight and leave it to impact due to gravity. Was every impact the same? No. But it shows some material behavior and that is what we wanted to focus when we chose material for Mk1. The video is there to show that the Carbon will absorb the energy and destroy itself in the process, the aluminium will bend and the Mk1 will deform and spring back. This is the most important property.
Maybe I missed it but did you do some tests at around 0 degrees celcius?
Just thinking of cold mornings in the desert or in the mountains with negative degrees and tired drivers dropping the bike...
Thermoplast might react a bit different

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Old 10-15-2013, 08:48 AM   #1584
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Hi Paul


I did not even tell him to crash. Such was his dedication that he did it on his own It is good that we have some data there and we can have some numbers when designing the towers. A 5kg tower will be approx 50 kg at 10g. Just good to know some values. Data will continue to gather as we draw more riders in so we will build a data base of loads and temperature ranges. The next addition will be a data logger volt meter so that we know the amount of abuse each motor takes. Then we can have a much better approximation of motor life. 600 hrs is plenty but how much rally time is that?
Having riders all over the place will help add to the knowledge pool here...
I totally agree. I think when we say plastic and CF or Kevlar and all those names associated with F1, exotic cars and bikes, people will choose CF hands down. Plastics and Thermoplastics have properties that are good enough not only for the everyday user, but for the racers as well. HDPE will move out of the way to protect the Navi equipment and is cheaper and easier to machine than aluminium. You can even drill it on site with a hot screwdriver to make holes and tie wrap it in place. .
The top guys, have some safety reserves but I think they are not going loco about it. Even if the part runs out of life they replace it... It sure looks sexy as hell though We have to understand better what we need. Do we need to replace the equipment as a whole, or parts of it? They can afford to replace not only the tower, but the Nav equipment on top of it. There is an assembly waiting to be put to good use. The whole thing. The lights, the trips, the MD. Everything bolted. You just take of a couple of cables, the two crews on the head, switch the iritrack and good to go. Small teams cannot afford to do it this way. Let alone privateers...


Stefan!

Good point, I thought of it when choosing this particular material...
This particular thermoplastic is stable from -40deg C up to triple figures. JayBo's minimum temperature in the Australasian Safari was -5 deg C from the loggers, if I remember correctly, and max 35? Somewhere there. The shell is not a problem temperaturewise. The transmission and the motor suffer the most during these changes (usually the start and the reverse cycles when cold stress the motor windings the most) . I went down to -15 in the freezer and up to 60 (leaving it during the day in the sun) to check that the transmisison will cope ok. It did, and the next lab video will be the temp range one.
HDPE also, has a broader temp range, which is better and imo the way you can modify it almost on site with a swissarm knife makes it really really attractive.... You can literally shape it there Huge benefit for both privateers and big teams...

Till later,
D.
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:20 AM   #1585
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Originally Posted by theantipaul View Post
The new CF KTM towers are very impressive and with a whole factory behind them, spares in the truck as well as team mates bikes to step onto if you demolish yours, KTM can do it, but who else can.
Except for R&D on design, the costs of those parts aren't excessive. They're likely using pre-preg, some variation on epoxy that allows for flex.

We had a Dow resin with an Air Products Hardener that with only two layers of 7.4oz 2x2 twill was so flexible, even in the contours, that sportbikes could crash (not yardsale) and still run the bodywork with perhaps only a few reinforcement patches, not REPLACEMENT patches.

I've not worked with CF extensively, but the tensile strength of it, and the strength to weight, is the value. If it's brittle and easily cracks, that's a problem with the resin choice, not fabric. With enough money, maybe like KTMEU, a perfect combo could be found and it would both be rigid and flexible appropriately like plastic, and take up less real estate and be marginably more expensive to produce.

The price of CF parts is a market price, there's plenty of room in CF retail pricing to produce them "cheaply". And even with the Δ in materials cost over the last few years, there's still room. Their (KTM) design, only seeing the cosmetic side would be pretty easy to reproduce. Someone mentioned some honeycomb recently, perhaps a 1/16" hexcell and 2x6oz on each side, I'd use my old epoxy resin combo for flexibility. The hexcel has little flex modulus and the design could be honeycomb only at certain points, maybe around the edges and in flat spots. Another option is to make some backing straps like on the underside of a car hood.

There's inexpensive ways to make something like that work, work well, and not have failures. But it's in the R&D dept that those options become evident.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:36 AM   #1586
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Originally Posted by beechum1 View Post
Except for R&D on design, the costs of those parts aren't excessive. They're likely using pre-preg, some variation on epoxy that allows for flex.

There's inexpensive ways to make something like that work, work well, and not have failures. But it's in the R&D dept that those options become evident.
Sorry Jeremy I have to disagree, did you forget tooling again?

The tooling costs alone would prohibit most from even thinking of making a precision CF part, let alone 5-10 for an assembly like that and all the other R&D aspects.

The R&D software and engineers for designing the parts for strength and flex in a predictable manner, fabricators to then to lay it up correctly on the tooling made in the CNC department then bolt it up see how it reacts, then start over with what you learned, repeat 2-3 times, all of that aside, you can now see pictures on the internet and copy it, but you won't know what you're doing or why. Especially with the variables in a structural CF part.

I'm sure this represents months of work on KTM's part, then to get to the stage of bolting one up for a race on Coma's bike, way different level of magnitude. That's why guys don't make Formula 1 cars in their garage.

I appreciate it when we see Dimitri go through this process of R&D and destructive testing that the factories do, but we are not privy to. It's a lot of work!
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:45 PM   #1587
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To be clear, not arguing per se, just my opinion....

I did forget about CNC tooling, but from a low tech point of view, cost of fiberglass molds are inexpensive also. Of course, that's after hand sanding bondo and making a plug out of cardboard or wood. Labor would be the most part of COGS but for a personal part it could be argued it's "free."

R&D process is certainly appreciated. I didn't mean to insinuate that I would copy it. I've no need for that design. I wouldn't use a heavy light like that, and the fairing design is completely different, etc. It was an observation, not a goal.

Like you say, R&D and destructive engineering are critical to all processes. Having designed my own setup on my XR I get that. I was fortunate to have only gone through 2 revs before my tower was acceptable. If I wasn't leaning towards selling the bike, I'd definately make a third which would be wiring changes and likely the headlight setup would have to change.

Most of the load factors and structural design can be done on paper, especially for what amounts to about 10lbs with (layman) G's of about what... 5-8 of typically "rolling stresses" and a crash of what, 10-20G's? So 10lbs becomes 200lbs. Engineer in a safety factor of at least 1.5 and do some testing if needed before construction.

Carbon behaves predictably in a minimal waste matrix, bagged or infusion, and even better, pre-preg. So it wouldn't be difficult to sketch out the designs to affect the strengths necessary. Some uni-tow equal spaced in 22.5 deg radii from mounting points and put in some contours for stress and strength points.

The most difficult part, I think, would be the lateral (z to bike position) forces to account for and not interfere with vertical and horizontal (x & y to bike) flex.

Again, not arguing... just talking out loud you know..... My experiences and opinions...... I can always be wrong.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by theantipaul View Post
Sorry Jeremy I have to disagree, did you forget tooling again?

The tooling costs alone would prohibit most from even thinking of making a precision CF part, let alone 5-10 for an assembly like that and all the other R&D aspects.

The R&D software and engineers for designing the parts for strength and flex in a predictable manner, fabricators to then to lay it up correctly on the tooling made in the CNC department then bolt it up see how it reacts, then start over with what you learned, repeat 2-3 times, all of that aside, you can now see pictures on the internet and copy it, but you won't know what you're doing or why. Especially with the variables in a structural CF part.

I'm sure this represents months of work on KTM's part, then to get to the stage of bolting one up for a race on Coma's bike, way different level of magnitude. That's why guys don't make Formula 1 cars in their garage.

I appreciate it when we see Dimitri go through this process of R&D and destructive testing that the factories do, but we are not privy to. It's a lot of work!
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Old 10-15-2013, 01:31 PM   #1588
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To be clear, not arguing per se, just my opinion....

I did forget about CNC tooling, but from a low tech point of view, cost of fiberglass molds are inexpensive also. Of course, that's after hand sanding bondo and making a plug out of cardboard or wood. Labor would be the most part of COGS but for a personal part it could be argued it's "free."
Sorry Jeremy, I knew that's what you were saying, so I had to give you grief. Some of us could make a workable CF tower by the seat of our pants, doubt it would look or function anywhere near as well.

But when it comes to KTM Factory Racing you can bet that's not how they did it. Every surface and every thickness will have a purpose. I just question what it would look like and how functional it would be after a solid hit. My take away is that the plan is not to take a solid hit.

I still need more convincing that a CF tower is the way to go.
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Old 10-15-2013, 01:59 PM   #1589
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Regarding the drop test.

Isnīt the thermoplastic simpel lexan?

The test conducted on the CF part, did i see some fiberglass stick out? thought it was complete 2-3mm CF/kevlar? The CF would of course get cracks but the kevlar would bring in the flexability!
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Old 10-15-2013, 02:30 PM   #1590
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Regarding the drop test.

Isnīt the thermoplastic simple lexan?

The test conducted on the CF part, did i see some fiberglass stick out? thought it was complete 2-3mm CF/kevlar? The CF would of course get cracks but the kevlar would bring in the flexability!
Is it? Will not publish material properties... just yet.... The properties are not final anyways...

There was no fiberglass in the part. Only pure CF and CF/Kevlar weave. The CF/Kevlar sheet is too weak. You can actually penetrate it with a hand and a hammer.... And I have the part to show it

As far as composites is concerned, I am with Paul. I think factory bikes will get more and more high tech. Question remains.... 40% lighter. That is what KTM said for their new tower. Ok, they shaved 600 grams. So what? 600 grams. That is how much a couple of spanners weigh.... I don't think they did it for weight.
Don't get me wrong, I love composites as much as the next guy. Fairings? Yes. bash plates? ... well... Yes and No (Have you seen the Kawa with the HDPE bash plate? ). Fibers, in general do break upon impact. It is that property that we use to make helmets, monocoques etc. IN this particular area (Navi quipment and tower), you want the parts to absorb the energy (1) and (2) either divert is somewhere or (3) deflect and spring back. Can CF parts do that? Of course. Can plastics do that. For sure. Which one is easier to manufacture and costs less to prototype? Plastics hands down. And do not be fooled. When people hear plastics think of water bottles and pens... There are thermoplastics out there which are used in bulletproof windows.

And will tell you something from my HDPE experience. Do you know that with a butane lighter and an HDPE rod you can actually weld the thing in the side of the road? You can literally weld the thing back and continue the race.... i used to repair HDPE pipes on site and I was surprised on how HDPE behaves....

It is just that I am not convinced that the CF will behave nicely in a crash. Plus, the thin parts left after a hit are not very good for our health and I hate wearing masks all the time


For example... Mounting brackets....

Now you see it ....
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