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Old 11-01-2013, 10:32 AM   #3061
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie66 View Post
Engine swapping penalties were also in place last year. If I recollect both Dobrowski and Cyril copped minutes or hours for swapping their engines.

Yep, still the 15 mins for the first change - and that is what this is all about, it wasn't covered in the regs last year, but now they have made it "legal" and official.

I don't really believe there is anything suspicious, or because it was Cyril, only that he found a loophole that has now been sanctioned in the regs.

I supposed they couldn't condem it though, as it would say that last years French winner was outside the regs in taking his 5th title - not that he has ever courted controversy in any of his first 4 wins

too old screwed with this post 11-01-2013 at 10:55 AM
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:53 AM   #3062
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Ah the French....


Who else is reminded of this advert: So differente, so French...

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Old 11-01-2013, 11:04 AM   #3063
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Originally Posted by Deadly99 View Post
So now teams will have water carriers and engine carriers (who are also well trained in engine swapping)...
Yes Ted, not just in the Bivouac on the Marathon stage, they could theoretically be done during the Rally - liaison or special.

What is the record time for an engine swop

The swopor would get a 15 min penalty if it was his first change, as would the swopee - not that it would help him too much if there was a piston stickingn through the engine casing. Plus another 15 mins for doing it without notification.

Can't ever see it happening, but there again there are lots of things out there in Dakarland that are never foreseen

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Old 11-01-2013, 11:42 AM   #3064
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I'm curious what the going rate for an engine swap is. You know.... XXXX$ per 15min penalty?
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:01 PM   #3065
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Originally Posted by beechum1 View Post
I'm curious what the going rate for an engine swap is. You know.... XXXX$ per 15min penalty?
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Old 11-01-2013, 01:00 PM   #3066
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To my knowledge it has been done in a special before too, nothing new, no loophole etc. simply a penalty incurred. I know of a Dutch team that had motorbike engines and parts in a race truck and in a car , both competing in the rally simply to support the bikes.
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Old 11-01-2013, 01:41 PM   #3067
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Originally Posted by Aussie66 View Post
To my knowledge it has been done in a special before too, nothing new, no loophole etc. simply a penalty incurred. I know of a Dutch team that had motorbike engines and parts in a race truck and in a car , both competing in the rally simply to support the bikes.
Would be interesting to know the details, but if it happened during the liaison or special (without checking) then I'm pretty sure the penalty is much greater than the 15 min first change, 45 min 2nd and 2 hrs each thereafter, as this would be assistance during the rally - several hrs (3 or 6 or DQ) for a first offence and DQ for a 2nd? All if it was service/ team assisted though.

The initial observation though was that there were several regulation changes and most specifically some concerning Cyril's Enginegate from last year, but there a few.

Another one is 15 p2 start order. In recent years it has been in reverse over a shortish 1st special (selective) but this year it is straight into a 2 min gap for the first 10 in number order then 1 min for the next 10 then 30 secs each - so Cyril will be off first. No indication of the length of the first selective, but this will be announced on the 20th Nov, maybe the rally numbers also

When you read through the regs it's not surprising that teams don't carry a lawyer - but they certainly need someone who knows his way through them!

Of course, you have to be caught, but non of our illustrious riders and teams would ever tyre, woops, I mean try, anything on now would they

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Old 11-01-2013, 02:01 PM   #3068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie66 View Post
To my knowledge it has been done in a special before too, nothing new, no loophole etc. simply a penalty incurred. I know of a Dutch team that had motorbike engines and parts in a race truck and in a car , both competing in the rally simply to support the bikes.
That's right - there is nothing in the rules that says you cannot receive help from a fellow competitor (indeed in the old days, that is what it was all about) - it's just the service crews that are not allowed to help during the liaison or stage - that is why traditionally the car teams in particular used to have a truck entered too (as a competitor), to carry a few spares...

Of course these days, with so many professional/factory teams having 2, 3 or even 5 riders, then the 'fellow competitor' also applies to someone on the same payroll (the traditional 'water-carrier') - which is what has increasingly confused the matter as the current crop of lightweight 450cc bikes mean more and more parts (up to and including whole engines it seems) are easily exchanged and considered sacrificial should the #1 rider require it...

I imagine that is why this new rule has been introduced/clarified - basically, if you change your engine with another, whether it is from your spares truck overnight, or with another competitor, you get an engine change penalty.

Seems pretty fair to me, as the whole point of an [endurance] rally is (or at least always was) to try and finish on the machine you started with?!

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Old 11-01-2013, 02:19 PM   #3069
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Originally Posted by too old View Post
Would be interesting to know the details, but if it happened during the liaison or special (without checking) then I'm pretty sure the penalty is much greater than the 15 min first change, 45 min 2nd and 2 hrs each thereafter, as this would be assistance during the rally - several hrs (3 or 6 or DQ) for a first offence and DQ for a 2nd?
Assistance between competitors is absolutely allowed in the Dakar, either on the Special or Liaison. That's kind of part of the original spirit of the race. When I was there, lots of riders paid truck race teams to carry an engine for them. The first group of trucks are actually racing and are mostly empty, but the slower race trucks are generally full of spares for their teams and customers. Going rate in 2006 or so, in Africa, was about $10K to get a truck to carry a motorcycle engine for you, but better deals were made. If you broke, you'd have to wait for them. If you were lucky enough to flag them down, they'd stop briefly and push your engine box out of their truck before continuing. Then you'd get to work. Of course, the factory teams had mechanics in their trucks too. (Like the ones that changed Kellon's motor on course in Mauritania in 2005.)

This still counts as an engine swap, though. This is enforced by FIM inspectors checking engine numbers in the Bivouac (the ones they paint on at Scrutineering.) They don't care how the new engine got in there, just that it was swapped.

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Old 11-01-2013, 02:47 PM   #3070
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Does anyone already posted pictures of Honda's twin cam engine ? This thread is too long to read all of it, but if not, I'll be happy to do so. Got some fuzzy shots from Morocco rally :) I've been KTM my whole life, but to see this years Honda is absolutely amazing, it feels like F1 technology in dessert.

KTM was quite silent in Morocco, normally they run around smiling, but HRC gave them some serious wrinkles..
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:19 PM   #3071
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Originally Posted by Aussie66 View Post
To my knowledge it has been done in a special before too, nothing new, no loophole etc.
I thought Barreda and Matt Fish did one on this years Dakar, might have just been engine components though...

I really can't remember now.

Edit, looks like he changed his own for a new one outside the competitive stage http://www.motoonline.com.au/2013/01...bservations-2/ .
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:43 PM   #3072
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Off to the Milan bike show next week - expect to see the new KTM 450 Rally and possibly also the Honda ...................

Who wants loads of pictures ?

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Old 11-01-2013, 04:40 PM   #3073
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Does anyone already posted pictures of Honda's twin cam engine ? This thread is too long to read all of it, but if not, I'll be happy to do so. Got some fuzzy shots from Morocco rally :) I've been KTM my whole life, but to see this years Honda is absolutely amazing, it feels like F1 technology in dessert.

KTM was quite silent in Morocco, normally they run around smiling, but HRC gave them some serious wrinkles..
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Old 11-01-2013, 06:28 PM   #3074
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Originally Posted by pebble35 View Post
Off to the Milan bike show next week - expect to see the new KTM 450 Rally and possibly also the Honda ...................

Who wants loads of pictures ?

Yeah right! You have to ask? Is there an amount higher than "loads"? Maybe mega-loads...
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Old 11-01-2013, 06:28 PM   #3075
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Originally Posted by 690RR View Post
Does anyone already posted pictures of Honda's twin cam engine ? This thread is too long to read all of it, but if not, I'll be happy to do so. Got some fuzzy shots from Morocco rally :) I've been KTM my whole life, but to see this years Honda is absolutely amazing, it feels like F1 technology in dessert.

KTM was quite silent in Morocco, normally they run around smiling, but HRC gave them some serious wrinkles..
Photos would be great!
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