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Old 12-20-2013, 11:56 PM   #31
dmcd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlurr View Post
You really want a treat go to a race track sometime, you get to see lots of brand new shiny tires, some with a sticker on.
For two weeks each year I go to the IOM TT/ Manx GP. I have watched literally hundreds of riders go off the line with stickers on their new shiny tyres and hit top speed straight away. But if you watch and listen to the on board footage, of which there is many hours on Youtube, they all take it (slightly) easier for the first few corners and miles.


I rate their "real road racing" opinion, higher than your gravel trap/air fence cosseted track racers and tutors.


But, I do also agree with you that the profile of a new tyre makes a bike feel different, and could mistakenly be blamed on the coating.
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Old 12-21-2013, 12:04 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Louis Wambsganss View Post
There seems to be a common trait among some of these reports, and that is Metzeler Tires. I've had Metz ME880s without issue. They would break traction gradually and in a controlled manner, but that was probably close to 10 years ago. The Z8s I have now are the only one's that have given me issues.

My Z8's tossed me on my ass 5' past the exit out of the Dealer's lot, on my brand new, 0 mile bike.

I nearly had it happen again minutes later, when I left the lot turning left this time, instead of right! You believe me I hope, when I tell you I was freaked out after the initial binning, so I was beyond careful leaving the second time, and Auuuuugh! Almost again!? WTF!

This was the first time this has ever happened to me in over 40+ years of riding, 22 motorcycles, nearly a million km's travelled all over the continent, and uncountable number of new tires.

In the past, I've always taken care to gingerly make my way home to give the new tires a good scrubbing, or been extremely careful about the first several miles. Some have been a bit twitchy and slippery, others felt pretty grippy straight away. I've had lots and lots of happy dealings with other Metzeler tires.

These tires felt like they were dipped in fricking Armor All, and then slathered in axle grease! I didn't even have the chance to carefully go a few feet, before *crash*.


The Metz Z6's on my previous BMW felt just fine. I never noted the slightest issue with those. I would have given them 9 out of 10 if they had a better method to indicate tread wear at the centre of the rear tire, which the Z8's appeared to have addressed with the new lateral grooves in the design. I was looking forward to many happy miles on them.


Was this all my fault? Absolutely, I cop full blame, no one but me to point the finger at. I know what I know though. I regret not scuffing up the tires prior to leaving the dealer.
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Old 12-21-2013, 02:00 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by dmcd View Post
For two weeks each year I go to the IOM TT/ Manx GP. I have watched literally hundreds of riders go off the line with stickers on their new shiny tyres and hit top speed straight away. But if you watch and listen to the on board footage, of which there is many hours on Youtube, they all take it (slightly) easier for the first few corners and miles.


I rate their "real road racing" opinion, higher than your gravel trap/air fence cosseted track racers and tutors.
so lets think about what u said for a minute. These guys are taking corners right off at speeds the rest of can only dream of under the best of times. Yet meanwhile joe blow is wrecking driving down the road at normal speeds and the tires must be slick, ok then.
I seriously doubt a single one of them would discredit A former world moto gp champs manager as a gravel trap tutor lol. Come on man read the article and think about what yer saying.
Quote:



But, I do also agree with you that the profile of a new tyre makes a bike feel different, and could mistakenly be blamed on the coating.
Now we are getting somewhere, a reasonable mind presented with a new Idea

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Old 12-21-2013, 02:46 AM   #34
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Everything the OP said is true. New street tires from the major producers don't need to be scrubbed. New race tires are not heat cycled and other than the warm-up lap, they hit turn one on sticker tires. Every heat cycle reduces the tire's grip, so race tires that have more than one heat cycle will be slower. Race tires are cooked in tire warmers for at least 30 minutes prior to taking the track, whether they are new or old.

Let people believe what they want. If they feel better scrubbing in tires so be it.
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Old 12-21-2013, 02:48 AM   #35
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Oops Pantah, you beat me to it, my reply was meant for the Blurr.

Sorry, I don't understand your point, they go a little slower on the first few bends/miles, to let the tyre warm up, bed in, scrub in or whatever. Surely you are arguing against this?

Maybe the "champs" manager will also tell him not to bother with the warm up lap either as it is a waste of time? You haven't considered traction control either.


You believe him if you want, but I'll take my advice from those who race on road tyres, (in some classes) on real roads, in the real world.


Summary:- Some tyres may not need scrubbed, but many still do.


( have I used the word real, too much? ;-) )
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Old 12-21-2013, 02:51 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by luckygrownup View Post
Yeah, that was my post. I think this the first time I tried to counter-steer a bike on cold or new tires. It was pretty stupid. But, in three years of commuting in all weather, and about 5-6 sets of road tires, I have had one violent fish tail on a R1150 RTP. I think I mistakenly attributed that cause to oil or a white line. But, now I think it was just cold tires.

So, I am still learning...

White lines can be slick, as can manhole covers ect, oil will come up from the road during rain decreasing your traction, it is also why you should not ride in the center of a lane right after a rain.
It could also have been the cold tires, good for you to think about what happened and hopefully prevent it in the future :)
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Old 12-21-2013, 02:52 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Pantah View Post
other than the warm-up lap, they hit turn one on sticker tires.
We can expect to see the end of the "warm up" lap then?
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Old 12-21-2013, 02:58 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by dmcd View Post
Oops Pantah, you beat me to it, my reply was meant for the Blurr.

Sorry, I don't understand your point, they go a little slower on the first few bends/miles, to let the tyre warm up, bed in, scrub in or whatever. Surely you are arguing against this?

Maybe the "champs" manager will also tell him not to bother with the warm up lap either as it is a waste of time? You haven't considered traction control either.


You believe him if you want, but I'll take my advice from those who race on road tyres, (in some classes) on real roads, in the real world.


Summary:- Some tyres may not need scrubbed, but many still do.


( have I used the word real, too much? ;-) )
Tires need to be brought up to an optimal temperature which maximizes the grip, to hot they become "greasy" to low they are not sticky enough.

The article talks about this :)

Edit: Soon as you take the tire out of the warmer it begins to cool, thus why you have warm up lap to bring it back up to temp.

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Old 12-21-2013, 03:24 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Wambsganss View Post
I have a set of Metzeler Z8 Interacts (mfgd in 2012). When new they had a very noticeable heavy waxy/greasy film on the tread area. I don;t know if it's mold release agent, or what, but it was slippery on the road. I could not cut through it with Simple Green or Fast Orange. It just smeared. This makes me think it was a wax vs a grease. It clogged up sandpaper. The only way I found to remove it was to wear it off on the road, just being very careful as I leaned further over the first few times.

That's how all my tyres look like. However, I'm not pushing it hard enough on public roads to recognize any difference between the completely scuffed area and the first time of touching the untouched area when at last a peg touches the ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlurr View Post
The next myth we see perpetuated nearly every time we watch the warm-up lap to a race. Riders begin weaving back and forth in apparent attempt to scuff the tread surface (which we've already discounted) and generate heat. The reality is that, according to every tire engineer that I've asked, there are far more effective ways of generating heat in a tire that are also much safer. Rather than weaving back and forth-which does little in the way of generating heat but does put you at risk asking for cornering grip from tires before they're up to temperature-you're far better off using strong acceleration and braking forces, and using them while upright, not leaned over! Acceleration and braking forces impart far more flex to the tire carcass, which is what generates the heat that then transfers to the tread compound as well (you often see Formula 1 cars weaving violently back and forth because automobile tires operate on a horizontal plane, so they have and use significant sidewall flex to generate heat).
What I don't get: When it's a myth, why do the professional riders do it all the time?
Also from my personal experience, especially on cold days, the tyre gets warm in the centre from as you said acceleration and braking, but since rubber isn't an exceptional well heat conductor, that heat is NOT transfered to the sides of the tread. Even after miles and miles of riding, including upright ABS braking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlurr View Post
Tires also get harder with every heat cycle, those tires which are five years old do not have near the traction of a nice shiny new tire ya'll are afraid of. Yet you would not hesitate to jump on said tire simply because "they are not new"
Why the fuck should I use such old, not to say rotten, tyres? I'm always buying the newest tyre model, manufactured a few weeks or at worst months ago. My tyres in general don't happen to become older than a year until they're changed. Buy outdated stuff only to save maybe twenty bucks a piece? Seriously?
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Old 12-21-2013, 04:04 AM   #40
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Think about it for a minute, fellas. Think of the liability aspect. Do you actually think tire manufactureers are sending motorcycle tires out of the plant covered in a slippery substance? Really?

Why do people crash on new tires? They're cold. They're overinflated from the shop (maybe). They are covered in tire lube from a sloppy tirechanging job at the shop (maybe). They have a different profile from the tire the rider is used to. Etc. Slippery from the factory? Not so much.
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Old 12-21-2013, 06:41 AM   #41
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My trusted mechanic told me to take it easy on the corners initially after mounting my new Z8s. He also recommended riding down a dirt road to quickly remove the new tires' sketchiness. Those weren't his exact words but I suppose embedding dirt/road grit in the new tires' surface would help overcome that new-tire feel.
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Old 12-21-2013, 06:58 AM   #42
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Some people shouldn't ride motorcycles.
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Old 12-21-2013, 08:05 AM   #43
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Oh well....I'll do two things today before I go back to work.

Vote that thread as "inspiring" then put the OP on ignore.

2 kms of gravel road to scrub my tires before I hit pavement. Wasn't enough last time for the rear, I later installed a new front one and scrubbed it in the shop. Must have been the cold.....
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Old 12-21-2013, 08:16 AM   #44
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OMG, does it really change much in the grand scheme of things if people take it easy for the first couple miles on a new set of tires? Could you possibly create a more petty thread?
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Old 12-21-2013, 08:43 AM   #45
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OMG, does it really change much in the grand scheme of things if people take it easy for the first couple miles on a new set of tires? Could you possibly create a more petty thread?
tires play an integral part in motorcycle safety, knowing the realistic capabilities of your machine will enable you to have a more safe and long riding career. If you are not comfortable with your tires as I posted before that will transition into poor riding behavior.
Making excucses under false pretenses helps no one whatsoever, and riding in gravel to scrub your tires is silly lol funny as hell actually.
It is up to you how you would like to ride, the thread was to inform and to help people better themselves, if you do not wish to progress, then please, move on. :)
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