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Old 01-18-2014, 04:58 PM   #1801
TobyG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emmodg View Post
FI wasn't on rally bikes in the day either. I'm sure there were riders that were saying the same thing: "What if my FI goes 'boom'? I'm screwed then!" Now we have sophisticated FI systems. Water cooled bikes took the place of air-cooled bikes. What if you loose your radiator?

Why they switched to watercooled bikes and more and more are switching to FI?
Because FI has proven to be very, very reliable and watercoolers, well, the advantages (more effective cooling, especially in low speed situations) simply overshadow the risk of damaging the radiator(s).

Now let's take Barreda's ride at this years Dakar.

How many times did he completely destroy his Nav tower?
2, 3 or even 4 times?
His coolers seem to have survived all this carnage (has there been a puncture?), the FI didn't make problems, either, unless I missed something?

Even though his Roadbook has been completely f-ed up a couple times he was still able to continue,
probably by literally ripping the paper out, at least one of the tripmasters still seemed to work after all every single crash he had.
Now if you had a all-in-one electronic unit, I doubt it would've survived all those crashes anywhere close to working condition. And how many spares are you gonna carry? They aren't exactly small units.
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Old 01-18-2014, 05:19 PM   #1802
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I'm sure bike engineers and builders would love to see less "clutter" to have to deal with and find room for. Imagine the KTM's sleek light-weight one piece carbon tower holding a single screen instead of 4 separate pieces of gear.

I hear ya' though. Each to his own opinion I guess... You see it as not happening, I see it as an eventual inevitability.
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Old 01-18-2014, 08:48 PM   #1803
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That tablet thingy would be just what I'm looking for if it had this feature as well
https://www.chariotgauge.com/

I'm talking for more adventure bike stuff and not specifically rally racing.

How good would it be to have the screen displaying your GPS map but with a temp and oil pressure or what ever else you want displayed in the corner and then have preset warnings for low pressure, over temp or what ever so that the screen flashes up the sensor info on the full screen.

I'm building a bike at the moment and I've been looking into multi display gauges but to have everything I want displayable the bike would have a cockpit like a 747.

Some one please build what I want.


Thanks
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Old 01-18-2014, 10:12 PM   #1804
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The software version is only 39. It'll run on a windows CE device which a lot of the cheapo sat navs are. Stick that in a waterproof case and you're away. I've got one sat in a drawer somewhere...
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Old 01-18-2014, 11:47 PM   #1805
640 Armageddon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emmodg View Post
I'm sure bike engineers and builders would love to see less "clutter" to have to deal with and find room for. Imagine the KTM's sleek light-weight one piece carbon tower holding a single screen instead of 4 separate pieces of gear.

I hear ya' though. Each to his own opinion I guess... You see it as not happening, I see it as an eventual inevitability.
Forget about the numbers for the moment (Although he is right in the ball mark), back in to 2009 things were a little it different. But read the point that this inmate is making >>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders Green View Post
Ok, I'm a guy that makes road books and organises rallies and, in my former life, was an electronics designer and embedded systems software writer. Also note that this post is addressing the issues, and is not an attack on the author I'm quoting.

It would not be easier than paper.

A piece of paper won't crash or run out of batteries. It won't have a problem when 14 days into the rally, you have to add a new section due to a small war that pops up that you need to re-route around, and now your file is 1028kb which goes over the limit of 1024kb (or whatever nonsense). It doesn't need an entire software package created to manage/upload the data. It would be very difficult to get mid-day modifications out to the crews, where a stack of papers can easily be handed out to everyone next to a mud hut where the nearest electricity is 80 kilometers away by a person that has never seen an AA battery. Managing the different HW/SW versions over the years would also become increasingly complex as people raced with "legacy" hardware.

It would not cost similar to a paper road book holder.

Such a device, engineered to withstand Dakar-like conditions, would likely have a bill of materials of 200-400 dollars (at the higher end with large enough screens). If this marked up to typical consumer prices, you would see 600-1200 dollar final prices. However, the market is tiny, so that would be very optimistic.
If spec'ing a company to build such a system (and it would have to be a SYSTEM, that is, not just a "device", you need all sides of it. All the support software, route building software, updating software, firmware for the device, enclosure CAD.) I would imagine an engineering price tag of $150,000 to $350,000. (that's just the design. No units included.)
Now can anyone tell me why Dakar Inc would feel that spending a quarter million dollars on this is something that has moved up their priority ladder to where they start cutting checks? Cause they can just print paper and it's working now.
A sealed GPS that records your track is trivial in comparison. That's off-the-shelf stuff.
Anders
Look also at Diabolico Rally discussion. They need a GPS unit, but it has to be compatible with such and such. Imagine what Anders says. Every single orga would have to comply with this standard. And always see the financial impact on the orga.
If it costs them money, they will just do not run it. Period. I have spoken with a couple of orga people, big rallies and such, and I discussed the option to make a collision warning devise. The technology is there and it could save lives. It really could.
the answer always is ''how much'' . Because to develop such a thing, they need a system. It all comes down to this simple question...

Navigation is a very important aspect in a rally. That is why you calibrate the tripmaster, that is why you do not have a GPS, and that is why you do not have the electronic version of the road. Because then, it is a sprint race to the finish.
If and organization like Dakar is to use it, you need support.
Look what happened with iritracks this year... Even in 2013 we are not able to follow the rally because sth stupid happens to the irritracks and we are left speculating, pressing F5 in our keyboards...
Then you have to ''convince'' the orga that this version is actually better (and cheaper) than the old one. And then you have to make every single rider in the field switch. That is giving another USD 1000 for a new tower and the unit.

Don't think I'm being pessimistic and such. I love technology as much as the next guy. But I think that the target are not the racers. The target of this are people who are touring. And the market potential is huge there. Races are what? 5%? 10%? There are people buying the full catalogue of Touratech as we speak going on holidays with every single gadget on the planet. These are the people who would buy it...
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Old 01-19-2014, 12:42 AM   #1806
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I think the remote, software + something like this https://www.meetearl.com would be a cheaper option but it's true for the moment it's intended more for amateurs/adventure market. Wondering how the remote is connected to the device but I believe is straight forward. (USB/BT).
The ability to connect the device to the ECU and have all the info would be amazing also in both cases (adv/rally).
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Old 01-19-2014, 04:30 AM   #1807
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRjoe View Post
That tablet thingy would be just what I'm looking for if it had this feature as well

https://www.chariotgauge.com/



I'm talking for more adventure bike stuff and not specifically rally racing.



How good would it be to have the screen displaying your GPS map but with a temp and oil pressure or what ever else you want displayed in the corner and then have preset warnings for low pressure, over temp or what ever so that the screen flashes up the sensor info on the full screen.



I'm building a bike at the moment and I've been looking into multi display gauges but to have everything I want displayable the bike would have a cockpit like a 747.



Some one please build what I want.





Thanks

About the closest thing to that I saw was from inmate Portabledash: http://users.eastlink.ca/~reastwood/

Most of his links in the vendor thread appear to be dead now... Not sure how far the project went.

Your next bike build might need to be a Harley though Joe!
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Old 01-19-2014, 10:22 AM   #1808
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emmodg View Post
I'm sure bike engineers and builders would love to see less "clutter" to have to deal with and find room for. Imagine the KTM's sleek light-weight one piece carbon tower holding a single screen instead of 4 separate pieces of gear.

I hear ya' though. Each to his own opinion I guess... You see it as not happening, I see it as an eventual inevitability.
Why not getting the full nine yards and do away with all the cockpit gizmos and use Google Glases, or googly eyes as they should have been named ...?
Or one more on top, connect direct to your visual nerve system ....
And because Rallies then would become very fast why not use drone riders for safety? and remote control them from your couch via your PS4/XBox or Nintendo Wee
Or learn to play snooker ....

Stefan
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Old 01-19-2014, 12:25 PM   #1809
Deadly99
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Hi Paul

I started putting the kit together. Very nice fit and finish













End goal is a rally bike for under 6k
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Old 01-19-2014, 01:18 PM   #1810
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This http://www.tripy.eu/en is already used in Dakar, ASO is working with these guys.
They only use it so far for support and orga roadbooks, but FIM CCRR committee is seriously thinking of it for the short future to be used officially.
Organizers of major Rallies (WCH races, Dakar) as FIM guys told me, push hard for it since to be honest it cuts a serious part of a rally budget (printing) makes daily changes on roadbook piece of cake especially for a rally that is in the middle of nowhere and can combine some xtra features in one box (like RF sensor for CPs, GPS etc).
Actually trippy people have a special box for dakar and they have already provided to ASO special tools for their own roadbook procedure (scouting, designing etc).
They also include some nice software which can edit or create tracks and roadbook (very similar to Mike;s navigator concept) using vector maps while a google earth plug in should be easy.
I am using it for 3 years while scouting and this year Hellas rally will have a special class for it with 5-6 bikers who asked for it.
It has, trip master, cap repeater and compass, digital roadbook, gps nav, gps plotter, accepts vector maps etc.
all of it for a cost lower than a full equipped cockpit.
Still doing rallies with a paper roadbook is like cooking your own food rather than put a box in the microwave oven.
But be ure that this is the short future for most of the major races, especially desert ones.
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Old 01-19-2014, 01:41 PM   #1811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadly99 View Post
Hi Paul

I started putting the kit together. Very nice fit and finish

End goal is a rally bike for under 6k
Nice one Ted,

I like the ''empty handlebar'' setup I see you got the light version of the tower. Amazing, isint it?
What lights will you be using? What roadbook holder?

I am preparing both the berg and the 640 Adv at the moment... boy the things will be beasts
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Old 01-19-2014, 01:48 PM   #1812
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Originally Posted by 640 Armageddon View Post
Nice one Ted,

I like the ''empty handlebar'' setup I see you got the light version of the tower. Amazing, isint it?
What lights will you be using? What roadbook holder?

I am preparing both the berg and the 640 Adv at the moment... boy the things will be beasts



Cheapo lights due to budget and I don't foresee a bunch of night riding. Advmonster LED's

Roadbook....why an Aurora one of course


Yes indeed the tower is much more sturdy than I was anticipating (I was a hit nervous to be honest). It appears to be a perfect solution. Price, weight, ease of install, etc are great
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Old 01-19-2014, 02:08 PM   #1813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HellasRally View Post
This http://www.tripy.eu/en is already used in Dakar, ASO is working with these guys.
They only use it so far for support and orga roadbooks, but FIM CCRR committee is seriously thinking of it for the short future to be used officially.
Organizers of major Rallies (WCH races, Dakar) as FIM guys told me, push hard for it since to be honest it cuts a serious part of a rally budget (printing) makes daily changes on roadbook piece of cake especially for a rally that is in the middle of nowhere and can combine some xtra features in one box (like RF sensor for CPs, GPS etc).
Actually trippy people have a special box for dakar and they have already provided to ASO special tools for their own roadbook procedure (scouting, designing etc).
They also include some nice software which can edit or create tracks and roadbook (very similar to Mike;s navigator concept) using vector maps while a google earth plug in should be easy.
I am using it for 3 years while scouting and this year Hellas rally will have a special class for it with 5-6 bikers who asked for it.
It has, trip master, cap repeater and compass, digital roadbook, gps nav, gps plotter, accepts vector maps etc.
all of it for a cost lower than a full equipped cockpit.
Still doing rallies with a paper roadbook is like cooking your own food rather than put a box in the microwave oven.
But be ure that this is the short future for most of the major races, especially desert ones.
We already run digital roadbooks at the Leppink events. Gerjan made 2 classes, digital (as in tripy) and analogue (paper).

He pre rides and creates all the stages, using maps, paper, the tripy and locals, no Google earth stuff here.

Tripy II units work much better then the old ones that couldn't hold a signal. The units come with a 5 year warranty but expect to break about 40% of the units during a weeks riding.

Still the best there is and not many come even close imho.


http://leppinkadventure.nl/index.php...book-navigatie
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Old 01-19-2014, 02:24 PM   #1814
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Yeah.... It's coming.
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Old 01-19-2014, 02:25 PM   #1815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tehdutchie View Post
We already run digital roadbooks at the Leppink events. Gerjan made 2 classes, digital (as in tripy) and analogue (paper).

He pre rides and creates all the stages, using maps, paper, the tripy and locals, no Google earth stuff here.

Tripy II units work much better then the old ones that couldn't hold a signal. The units come with a 5 year warranty but expect to break about 40% of the units during a weeks riding.

Still the best there is and not many come even close imho.


http://leppinkadventure.nl/index.php...book-navigatie
40% failure rate?

Costs a lot to get into, get to, etc a rally. I'd want to be damn sure my rally wasn't going to end due to a failure in the nav gear...
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