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Old 01-18-2014, 03:53 PM   #31
dddd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 390beretta View Post
Uh, thanks; but did you read the part where I said I've been riding for many years?
nope. such question = beginner, usually. oh well.
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Old 01-18-2014, 07:04 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by dddd View Post
nope. such question = beginner, usually. oh well.
No problem, appreciate your attempting to help. Actually, I have been riding on-off for most of my life; I'm now 67. Longest I've gone without owning a bike is 13 years. Cheers!
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Old 01-18-2014, 07:29 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 390beretta View Post
Well, good question. I guess I see a difference between an "emergency stop" and for lack of a better term a "quick stop". For the sake of an explanation, in my mind, a true emergency stop almost assumes you're gonna hit something unless you get very lucky..............
When your only option is stopping as soon as possible, everything else is secondary, even downshifting:
http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=216&Set=

Practicing emergency braking twice a year is not enough, twice a month is acceptable, twice a week is ideal.

The key about practice is not breaking any stopping record, but getting use to the way forces that a strong deceleration generates feel on your hands and legs.

That way, those forces pulling you forward, comparable in magnitude to the weight of your body, don't become an additional unfamiliar distraction when you may or not hit that car.
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Old 01-18-2014, 08:34 PM   #34
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I am an MSF Instructor, Your goal when stopping emergency or otherwise is to be in first gear when you stop, clutch pulled in ready to go.
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Old 01-19-2014, 02:30 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnewqban View Post
.......................
Practicing emergency braking twice a year is not enough, twice a month is acceptable, twice a week is ideal.

The key about practice is not breaking any stopping record, but getting use to the way forces that a strong deceleration generates feel on your hands and legs.
...............................
I ride some dirt on almost every ride. Since the LEO presence is sparse, I tend to pick up the pace (a lot). So there's a bunch of heavy braking going on.

In the last three years, 35k, and 4 emergency braking events. Two in the dirt and two on pavement. They were full brake, muscle memory situations, I had no time for thinking (yes, I know, sumya are perfect and would have seen it coming ). All four ended up with the clutch in and engine running. Two with the bike in first gear and two ended up in 2nd or 3rd.
My point is: use the front brake for almost every stop. You want your reflexes to know where it is and how hard you can use it.

fwiw: I'm 66
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Old 01-19-2014, 04:13 PM   #36
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Two In Two Down

I took the ABATE of Indiana BRC in 2008.
We were taught to pull in the clutch lever and
press down on the shifter while applying both
brakes. The catch phrase was "two in, two down."
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Old 01-19-2014, 04:56 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ER70S-2 View Post
I ride some dirt on almost every ride. Since the LEO presence is sparse, I tend to pick up the pace (a lot). So there's a bunch of heavy braking going on.

In the last three years, 35k, and 4 emergency braking events. Two in the dirt and two on pavement. They were full brake, muscle memory situations, I had no time for thinking (yes, I know, sumya are perfect and would have seen it coming ). All four ended up with the clutch in and engine running. Two with the bike in first gear and two ended up in 2nd or 3rd.
My point is: use the front brake for almost every stop. You want your reflexes to know where it is and how hard you can use it.

fwiw: I'm 66
Oyeah! I get what you're saying. I always shift down at lights for example and keep the bike in first in case I need to escape and evade, due to someone not stopping behind me. I always use both brakes when stopping, well, usually only rear in parking lots.
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Old 01-19-2014, 04:58 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by CRP6001 View Post
I took the ABATE of Indiana BRC in 2008.
We were taught to pull in the clutch lever and
press down on the shifter while applying both
brakes. The catch phrase was "two in, two down."
Can you provide a little more explanation re: "two in, two down"? Does the two down refer to dropping two gears? (shifting down at least two gears?)
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Old 01-19-2014, 05:03 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnewqban View Post
When your only option is stopping as soon as possible, everything else is secondary, even downshifting:
http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=216&Set=

Practicing emergency braking twice a year is not enough, twice a month is acceptable, twice a week is ideal.

The key about practice is not breaking any stopping record, but getting use to the way forces that a strong deceleration generates feel on your hands and legs.

That way, those forces pulling you forward, comparable in magnitude to the weight of your body, don't become an additional unfamiliar distraction when you may or not hit that car.
The forces you're referring to are no "unfamiliar distractions" to me. While I'm admittedly "older", I always grip the tank with knees/thighs and am fairly strong....been a weight lifter a lot of my life, so have good upper body strength, the forces you refer to are not a problem or distraction. Thanks
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Old 01-19-2014, 05:07 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 390beretta View Post
Can you provide a little more explanation re: "two in, two down"? Does the two down refer to dropping two gears?
Two down means pressing down on both the
rear brake lever and the shift lever. We were
supposed to shift all the way to low gear if
coming to a complete stop, so that might mean
several clicks of the shifter.
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Old 01-20-2014, 02:52 AM   #41
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Engine braking doesn't add to your braking, because you can only brake so much, and you can easily get to that point with your rear brake (which is a LOT better controllable). At a certain point, your engine does not even decellerate you, it accelerates you of you don't pull the clutch.
So, always pull the clutch when you have to brake hard.

This is even more true if you have ABS, because that only works for your brake, not for the engine.
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Old 01-20-2014, 09:07 AM   #42
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This is even more true if you have ABS, because that only works for your brake, not for the engine.
In fact with ABS it's not that important to pull the clutch, because you don't have to think about controlling the braking power - the bike will do it for you and compensate whatever the engine does (as long as it doesn't stall of course).
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Old 01-20-2014, 10:08 AM   #43
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In my own real world experiences I've found it's almost just as important to avoid the next object as the first. That likely means hard braking and then acceleration.
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Old 01-20-2014, 10:15 AM   #44
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OK, I'm going to admit to not having read the whole thread, so sorry if some of this is repetitive.

First point: the MSF is a beginner rider training class. Even the ERC is a fairly low-level of rider training when compared to the full spectrum of riding skills including all varieties of competition.

The MSF BRC curriculum is designed to be comprehensible and executable by absolute noob riders. The goal is to create scripts in the riders head that work adequately to control a motorcycle in most circumstances.

It is emphatically NOT the ultimate in riding technique.

The same reasoning applies to the curriculum taught in my own school, Motorcycle University. Let me be clear: I'm not disrespecting MSF.

You must walk before you run, and that is how it has to be.

I am also a 14-year veteran instructor with the Total Control Advanced Riding Clinic. Lee has 3 levels of classes - the 2nd level class includes a segment on hard braking.

With that cirriculum, I commonly see students shorten their braking distances by HALF or better. Some of that is a willingness to increase their threshold, but with many of the students, the biggest improvement an unlearning of the beginner dogma.

I strongly recommend reading the Total Control book, and taking the class afterward.
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Old 01-20-2014, 12:23 PM   #45
Red9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRP6001 View Post
I took the ABATE of Indiana BRC in 2008.
We were taught to pull in the clutch lever and
press down on the shifter while applying both
brakes. The catch phrase was "two in, two down."
In automobile racing you are taught to put "both feet in."
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