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Old 01-20-2014, 12:17 PM   #31
Albie
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Originally Posted by windmill View Post
Really?

I always thought that was a major selling point for Harleys, trading top end HP for low end torque making for a more relaxed ride at freeway speeds.

I think you're being intentionally obtuse.

If I'm so off base, why are touring bikes and cruisers tuned for low rpm torque rather than high rpm HP?
You're losing sight of what the OP is talking about. In other words, people ignoring what the engineers designed and taking it upon themselves to "re-engineer" their bikes to run at much lower RPM's then is even remotely necessary, much less advantageous.
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Old 01-20-2014, 12:20 PM   #32
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most big cc bike will be happy sitting at 70-80mph in top gear.
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Old 01-20-2014, 12:21 PM   #33
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Reg Pridmore says, "RPMs are your friend."
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Old 01-20-2014, 12:59 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill View Post
Really?

I always thought that was a major selling point for Harleys, trading top end HP for low end torque making for a more relaxed ride at freeway speeds.

I think you're being intentionally obtuse.

If I'm so off base, why are touring bikes and cruisers tuned for low rpm torque rather than high rpm HP?
Marketing.

The bikes are all torque due to the engines, long stroke, long intake runners .....sure combination for a stump puller.

High rpm for a Harley is less than half of most bikes...again long ass stroke, causes piston velocity issues, so you wouldn't tune for that anyway
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Old 01-20-2014, 01:39 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albie View Post
You're losing sight of what the OP is talking about. In other words, people ignoring what the engineers designed and taking it upon themselves to "re-engineer" their bikes to run at much lower RPM's then is even remotely necessary, much less advantageous.
I agree trying to re engineer a bike to not function as intended is dumb.

But it seemed to me the OP's question is why some folks don't like running at high rpms, guess I was wrong.

Seems some folks see a lot more than I do, I'll leave it to you all to bicker over.
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Old 01-20-2014, 01:39 PM   #36
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Physically large, low revving, high-capacity engines have associations with "quality" that date back to the early beginnings of the internal combustion engine.

In modern era we have redefined quality as "fitness for purpose". One guy's definition of quality vacation might be a ship-borne cruise and another's an overland trip to the Yukon.

An 1800 Harley and a Goldwing may rev at different rpm's at 80 mph. They are both high-quality designs that have been thoroughly engineered. However riders experience the end result in different ways.
It is great for us as consumers that we have a choice.
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Old 01-20-2014, 04:15 PM   #37
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I feel left out. I don't notice how fast the engine is running at highway speeds on my Helix. I've done multiple one-day 1000+ mile trips on it comfortably and was incredibly sore on a 750cc cruiser within 50 miles.
In other words, some people find the engine RPMs to be much less of a problem, if at all, than other (dis)comforts. For quite a few people, riding is all about some image that includes low RPM noise. As it was mentioned already, maybe some bikes are more vibration prone than others at certain RPMs due to resonance and damping characteristics?
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Old 01-20-2014, 04:48 PM   #38
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OP asked about low revs on the Highway - assume he means cruising.

Pretty simple, vibration and engine noise.

Generally speaking the higher the revs the more vibration and engine noise regardless of single, twin, triple or 4 cylinder. All engines have a sweet spot for power and curising (where vibration and noise are not as pronounced) and often the two aren't in the same rpm spot.

If one is crusing at 75-80 mph, you don't need much more roll on power power too initiate a pass since you already running 80, so why not raise a gear to lower rpm as long as there is enough Tq to kep you moving at the same speed without engine lugging.

If I need to quickly pass at 80, or any other speed for that matter, I can drop a gear as quickly as I can wrap the throttle, and that is exactly what I do.

Cruising on the highway I'm going be in low revs, riding the twisties or in heavy traffic where aggressive manuevers are needed, I keep the revs up.
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Old 01-20-2014, 05:04 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill View Post
Really?

I always thought that was a major selling point for Harleys, trading top end HP for low end torque making for a more relaxed ride at freeway speeds.

I think you're being intentionally obtuse.
MOST Harley and other Cruiser riders ride at WAY TOO LOW of an RPM while cruising down the highway.

Your 3000 RMP was actually spot on when it comes to V-twin cruisers. The Sweet Spot for a Twin cam is going to be found somewhere between 2900 - 3100 RPM's (best cooling, fuel economy... ) MOST get lugged and are being ridden in 6th gear when they should be in 4th.

In-line twins, triples and four cylinder bikes will of course be MUCH higher.
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Old 01-20-2014, 06:45 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
MOST Harley and other Cruiser riders ride at WAY TOO LOW of an RPM while cruising down the highway.

Your 3000 RMP was actually spot on when it comes to V-twin cruisers. The Sweet Spot for a Twin cam is going to be found somewhere between 2900 - 3100 RPM's (best cooling, fuel economy... ) MOST get lugged and are being ridden in 6th gear when they should be in 4th.

In-line twins, triples and four cylinder bikes will of course be MUCH higher.
It isn't based on engine layout, fwiw. 3000 RPM is about the minimum that my V twin really likes to see. The engines end up showing that trend because of the type of vehicle that each typically ends up in, though. The I4 in my GS750 is fine running from 2-4k rpm all the time if I'm riding sedately, but that would be miserable on a sportbike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill View Post
Low RPMs are less "stressful" on the rider when doing lots of miles.
This is actually true. Even if you aren't specifically listening for it, your brain processes all the sounds that your ears hear. More RPM typically means more noise, and at a higher frequency. Smaller engines have to rev higher to make power, typically, and usually make a bit of noise doing so. Those things do contribute to fatigue, even if it isn't inherently bad for the bike. That said, if you can't hear the engine over the wind or it's just that quiet, then the RPM won't make any difference to fatigue.
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Old 01-20-2014, 07:01 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadE30 View Post

This is actually true. Even if you aren't specifically listening for it, your brain processes all the sounds that your ears hear. More RPM typically means more noise, and at a higher frequency. Smaller engines have to rev higher to make power, typically, and usually make a bit of noise doing so. Those things do contribute to fatigue, even if it isn't inherently bad for the bike. That said, if you can't hear the engine over the wind or it's just that quiet, then the RPM won't make any difference to fatigue.
Spot on. Had a '02 Softail with a 109 hp gear drive cam setup. Driving around town it was louder than other similar V-Twins and I didn't think much about it. On a trip wore tight fitting ear plugs and could't hear the engine. At a gas stop took the plugs out and swore the motor was coming apart and on pins and needles for the next 200 miles until I got used to the "normal" engine sounds at 3.5k rpm.

The XR1200 is geared so running 75-80 in 5th (top gear) is just over 4k rpm (1k less than redline on other Sportsters) and without ear plugs I constantly feel the need to shift up to the non existent 6th gear. With ear plugs in I don't have that feeling of needing to up shift.
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Old 01-20-2014, 07:25 PM   #42
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There's no more fatigue at any RPM if you can't feel it.

If your bike vibrates fix it. Or buy a better one. If you don't like the sound listen to a formula one or Moto GP race before you ride. I can't stand lugging any engine, especially a short stroke pisswinder like I usually ride.

Almost all motorcycle engines are designed for near max power from a given displacement, because that's what makes the moto magazine writers happy. To do this the cams, compression ratios, intake tracts, exhausts, valves and a hundred other perameters are all engineered to work together at this higher RPM. The more high performance the engine is the more this is true. To run them around like a John Deere does them no good. The bikes are designed to have the engines spun at a high RPM, they are most efficient at the RPMs they were designed to run. They last longer spinning at an appropriate RPM, they burn less fuel, they stay cooler, it's all good. I have never seen a bike which actually benefitted from taller that original gearing. Usually they become dogs, slow off the line, too far between gears, and you end up spending more time in the lower gears because the top gears no longer pull the load.
Now you don't like it anymore, so you go buy a bigger motorcycle, and the story repeats itself.

If you guys don't like the sound of your engines buy an econobox or a minivan or something.
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Old 01-20-2014, 07:27 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
Generally speaking the higher the revs the more vibration
Take a look at the mirrors. It's the other way around. The ones complaining about vibrations (and bad sight in the mirrors) are always the low rpm ones.
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Old 01-20-2014, 07:48 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadE30 View Post
It isn't based on engine layout, fwiw. 3000 RPM is about the minimum that my V twin really likes to see. The engines end up showing that trend because of the type of vehicle that each typically ends up in, though. The I4 in my GS750 is fine running from 2-4k rpm all the time if I'm riding sedately, but that would be miserable on a sportbike.



This is actually true. Even if you aren't specifically listening for it, your brain processes all the sounds that your ears hear. More RPM typically means more noise, and at a higher frequency. Smaller engines have to rev higher to make power, typically, and usually make a bit of noise doing so. Those things do contribute to fatigue, even if it isn't inherently bad for the bike. That said, if you can't hear the engine over the wind or it's just that quiet, then the RPM won't make any difference to fatigue.
Vibes tend to be worse at high RPM, too - BMW f800 motors come to mind.

OTOH my old wee was fine at 6k for hours at a time.
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Old 01-20-2014, 08:12 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
Take a look at the mirrors. It's the other way around. The ones complaining about vibrations (and bad sight in the mirrors) are always the low rpm ones.
Hmmm, not my experience with several HDs, a DR650, Triumph 1050, and Honda CB 650.
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