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Old 01-25-2014, 08:49 PM   #31
Andyvh1959 OP
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Some good discussion. Let's use the extensive counter steering thread to detail how it works and leave this thread as one to describe a lack of skills/ability of the rider as THE cause the bike wouldn't make the turn. I have proved the bike can do it when I dragged my centerstand, my boot edge and my passengers boot edge in a decreasing radius turn. I looked to the exit, looked through the turn, kept the throttle on, and pressed hard on the inside grip. The bike did it easily. To me the rider who claims "it wouldn't make the turn" si my doesn't know what to do.
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Old 01-25-2014, 09:09 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post
To me the rider who claims "it wouldn't make the turn" si my doesn't know what to do.
Went through a mellow turn, not close to dragging anything even sitting straight in the seat. No gravel, nothing tricky at all in this turn. Looked in the mirror in time to see the guy behind me almost run off the road. He just didn't know you could lean the bike over very far. Had never done it before. Never had ridden with someone who enjoyed cornering, apparently.

Kind of like the guy who has never wound a motorcycle engine out and has no idea it gets more powerful at the upper end.

Or like the guy who has never thought about using the front brake to actually stop.

These guys are out there.
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Old 01-25-2014, 09:41 PM   #33
rfulcher
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I had this happen to me shortly after returning to riding after being out of it for years. Came up on a tighter than expected turn, but not that tight. It felt like the front was fighting me. The harder I tried to turn the more the bike seemed to resist. I knew and used counter steering regularly. I didn't do it that day and just barely made a turn that I could now take at twice the speed. (Well I must have counter steered some since I did make it)

What I think happens when "the bike would not make the turn"

When relaxed and comfortable riders don't push and are not under stress. So it is easy to "turn left to go right." However when stressed and maybe afraid we revert to the physical responses and reflexes that are most deeply learned. Most recreational riders drive cars way more than they ride motorcycles. For lots of riders the best learned (most instinctive/reflexive) response is to steer around the corner, bummer. When not freaked out counter steering is easy and even unconscious. However the more stressed the harder the rider reacts and tries to steer around the curve and they run wide because the bike "would not turn." The harder they try to turn the worse it gets. The responses to steer and counter steer fight each other. This make the bike and/or muscles feel locked up. If the steering response is the strongest survival reaction the bike goes off the road.

I have never heard this theory elsewhere, but that's my story and I am sticking to it.

Of course target fixation, lack of confidence, not knowing how far the bike will lean, freaking out and hitting the brakes, not knowing how to brake and turn when going in too hot, and other things contribute. However I think with sometimes fear turns on the survival reflex of steering and overwhelms the proper response of counter steering. Keith code talks about this kind of thing in his books and columns.
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Old 01-26-2014, 12:56 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by andykeck View Post
I would also suspect that this rider had a problem with his outside arm fighting what his inside arm is doing. I don't know if it's a psychological thing or simply natural muscle tension, but my riding got so much better when I started to concentrate on keeping my outside arm 'loose' while turning. It was like getting an all-new, much sportier bike when I learned that trick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommando View Post
'You want to improve even more, trying PULLING with your outside arm while pushing with your inside arm.
I find that pulling with my outside arm works best for me, but that was also the way I was taught to do it.
It's like wrenching - you don't push the wrench if there's room to pull the wrench.
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Old 01-26-2014, 01:16 AM   #35
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I will never forget the first time I deployed KC's Rule #1 under significant duress.

I was out on the Autobahn, A40 west of Duiisburg where there are some awesome interchanges, and I was playing around on the GS just goofing off. gErman cloverleafs are tight and wiggly, not long sweepers like in the US. I was in my own head and got caught not paying attention to the road. A tight right hander that came up like that.

I'd read Twist 1&2 and was working on countersteering and not being afraid to gas it out for a while, but never had to face reality like this time. I'd also typed out the SRs and the rules and taped them to my tank.

I saw the corner of the paper out of my eye and it clicked. I looked up, pushed the inside bar, and started to gently roll on the throttle. Not only did I come through the turn on a decent line, I scraped my right peg in the process.

I rode home with a bit more attention, all the while screaming in my helmet "it works! It really works!"

Then I did a track day on a little vintage Honda 175. Holy crap. Any upper body tension, and that thing was not going anywhere. Relax and it was like I only had to think about where I wanted to go, and it was there.

My gut feeling is that "the bike wouldn't turn" requires a mechanical issue to be truly accurate. Otherwise, it's the rider. I know, because I've been that rider.
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Old 01-26-2014, 01:21 AM   #36
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a lot of it comes down to confidence
not skills sometimes.
I always tell a beginner
if they get into trouble
as well as the other stuff well mentioned.
is believe in the bike if you freak out
it will look after you, keep going ,cornering, braking etc.
cheers
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Old 01-26-2014, 02:01 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikDK View Post
I find that pulling with my outside arm works best for me, but that was also the way I was taught to do it.
It's like wrenching - you don't push the wrench if there's room to pull the wrench.
I've been in a few situations where I couldn't get the bike to turn any farther. I knew it wasn't the bike, it was me. I just couldn't bring myself to push harder on the inside bar. A flash of inspiration (or logic) and I pulled on the outside bar, and the bike dove on in.

I had read Total Control, and was going by his advice to relax the outside arms and push with the inner to keep your arms from fighting each other.
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Old 01-26-2014, 02:39 AM   #38
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The part of the motorcycle most susceptible to failure is the nut connecting the handlebars to the seat. Given any particular motorcycle, this part is replaceable. However, it is usually not replaced until after failure.
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Old 01-26-2014, 11:14 AM   #39
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BMW and a K1300??? They have the same steering dampener as my K1200RS.

Only time that my bike went across the line and didn't want to come back and I had to really force it back, the front swivel bushing on the dampener was seizing up.

Swivels as the suspension compresses/offloads. Was fine when riding normally but stiff when riding a little faster.

I fixed that the next day.....!!!Been fine for 5-6 years, I just lubed it again.
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Old 01-26-2014, 03:30 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troops View Post
The first time I read it I thought it said "session" too.
Yea ,but before I posted I went back to make sure and must have mis-read it again.
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Old 01-26-2014, 08:41 PM   #41
dwoodward
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim McKittrick View Post
I concur- on our track the first turn at the end of the back straight can be entered at about 130 mph- it's a left flick followed by a right and you scrub speed as you enter but don't brake. Do it correctly and you are set up for the next left. It takes all of my strength to muscle my Honda RS250 through those turns at pace, and that's a machine that only weighs 250 pounds. I apply enough countersteering force that the handgrips (renthal soft) wear out each season as do the palms of my gloves.
Well, the front wheel is a big gyroscope that doesn't want to change direction; the faster the bike goes, the faster the wheel spins, the more force it takes to make it change direction.

Oregon crash stats show it is a relatively rare occurrence where a rider gets into a situation where the bike couldn't make it- it's their own ability they run out of, long before the bike's ability.
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Old 01-26-2014, 09:12 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by PT Rider View Post
Not exactly. Countersteering is the way to handle the centrifugal forces of the turn. The bike doesn't have to lean to turn, but it must lean to handle the centrifugal force.

The poor alternative is for the rider to shift body weight to the inside of the turn direction to handle limited centrifugal force (not hanging off, but an unconscious shoulder lean), then steer the bike around the turn. This works but is very limiting. This is one good reason why, "the bike can't make the turn."
Hi PT,
What caught my eye in your post were the words "the poor alternative is for the rider to shift body weight" and the the bike "must lean to handle the centrifugal force".

The most effective way to get a high-speed motorcycle around a fast corner is to significantly shift body weight to the inside corner, and keep the bike as upright as possible. Every professional racer does it, and its my observation that few road riders do it.

Here's a couple of video's from professionals being paid to give the same advice. As both are track day classes they place a lot of emphasis on traction, but for road riders the greater ability to turn easier, change a line in a turn, not drag pegs, improved braking, etc, etc are all reasons to do it. It's no good picking yourself up out of the dirt saying I should have done it. It has to be continually practiced so its second nature going into every fast turn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ODL2iqVG9Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znU_fyFZBRQ

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Old 01-27-2014, 01:01 AM   #43
BCKRider
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Lot's of good info on this thread. I too found that a little "hang off" (not moving my butt, just my head and upper body to the inside of the turn) not only started the counter-steer process without much conscious thought but made my cornering a lot smoother.

Only "tip" that I know which I haven't seen mentioned yet is to tilt your head so your eyes remain parallel to the road surface. Big help for most of us in not getting disoriented and thus panicked.

Two other pieces of advice which have worked well for me: 1. keep your speed down at first and 2. only add one or two additional technics per ride, building on the basics of setting your entry speed, picking your turn point, staying on the throttle and looking through the turn. For most of us, it takes time to make a new technic a reliable habit. If you find you are no faster but MORE RELAXED AND SMOOTHER, then that is a good technic for you.

I believe it was David Hough who stated something like "there are no emergency maneuvers you can call on in a real emergency. Good PRACTICED riding habits may well save your bacon." And trying to always get a little better has its own satisfactions.
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Old 01-27-2014, 03:02 AM   #44
JohnCW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCKRider View Post
I too found that a little "hang off" (not moving my butt, just my head and upper body to the inside of the turn) not only started the counter-steer process without much conscious thought but made my cornering a lot smoother.


I believe it was David Hough who stated something like "there are no emergency maneuvers you can call on in a real emergency. Good PRACTICED riding habits may well save your bacon." And trying to always get a little better has its own satisfactions.
Hi BC,
Can I recommend you progress to moving you butt. To do this effortlessly you need to ride with the balls of your feet on the pegs if not already doing it. Just ride along in a straight line and shift you butt half way across the seat, and drop you shoulder and knee on that side, what happens? The bike just starts to turn in that direction....... magic!!

Is interesting you used said shifting your body weight "not only started the counter-steer process without much conscious thought but made my cornering a lot smoother". If I knew I wasn't going to get 10,000 posts telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, I'd be saying the counter-steering discussion is to a large degree counter productive. It's because its made out as the be-all-end-all when it isn't, and if you correctly body shift its virtually impossible to not counter-steer even if you've never heard the term.

Another interesting observation is no one ever discussed suspension setup in a topic like "the bike just wouldn't make the turn". In fact its hardly ever discussed on motorcycle forums, period. Doesn't it strike anyone as unusual that pro-riders obsess with suspension settings to make a bike handle, yet the average road rider seems hardly concerned at all. More interested in the brand of oil to use. The difference in handling between a correctly set up bike and one probably unchanged in how it came from the dealer, is like night and day.

Just got to excuse me, have to chuck another log on the fire...............
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Old 01-27-2014, 05:42 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Hi PT,
What caught my eye in your post were the words "the poor alternative is for the rider to shift body weight" and the the bike "must lean to handle the centrifugal force".

The most effective way to get a high-speed motorcycle around a fast corner is to significantly shift body weight to the inside corner, and keep the bike as upright as possible. Every professional racer does it, and its my observation that few road riders do it.
I think he meant this literally as an alternative to counter-steering. Trying to use weight shift to steer the bike, instead of counter-steering, IS a poor alternative. This is the primary reason many riders miss the turn and later believe "the bike just wouldn't make the turn."

A quick read through the counter-steering threads would find just how many vehemently argue (wrongly) that initiating a turn with weight shift is just as effective as counter-steering. As you point out above, it is almost impossible to steer with weight shift without making counter-steering inputs at the bars. However, I'd wager that some riders trying to weight shift might actually fight the turn by counter-counter-steering at the bars as a fear reflex. Mostly because they don't understand that they have to drive wheels out from under the CG on the side that is away from the turn they want to make, and inevitably will not.

This has nothing to do with shifting body position to prevent hard parts from dragging at steep lean angles. (something only those who already grasp the use and benefit of counter-steering will employ as a technique)
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