ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-27-2014, 05:52 AM   #46
RxZ
Legal Drug Dealer
 
RxZ's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Tyler, TX
Oddometer: 1,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarbronco View Post
Man, every freakinbody should be required to ride single track trails on Dirtbikes before getting on a heavy street bike. When you can ride standing up on a six inch wide trail next to a cliff and powerslide corners without even thinking about it, you are then ready for a so called adventure bike and only having to worry about staying upright in a big wide road lane. Oh, and cars.
I don't even have a 6 inch wide trail, or a cliff, or a dirtbike.
__________________
2002 Yamaha FZ1
RxZ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 06:13 AM   #47
scootrboi
Beastly Adventurer
 
scootrboi's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Vermont
Oddometer: 1,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
I think he meant this literally as an alternative to counter-steering. Trying to use weight shift to steer the bike, instead of counter-steering, IS a poor alternative. This is the primary reason many riders miss the turn and later believe "the bike just wouldn't make the turn."

A quick read through the counter-steering threads would find just how many vehemently argue (wrongly) that initiating a turn with weight shift is just as effective as counter-steering. As you point out above, it is almost impossible to steer with weight shift without making counter-steering inputs at the bars. However, I'd wager that some riders trying to weight shift might actually fight the turn by counter-counter-steering at the bars as a fear reflex. Mostly because they don't understand that they have to drive wheels out from under the CG on the side that is away from the turn they want to make, and inevitably will not.

This has nothing to do with shifting body position to prevent hard parts from dragging at steep lean angles. (something only those who already grasp the use and benefit of counter-steering will employ as a technique)
Sliding around on the seat to shift body weight is an excellent way to lose control or fall off the bike. I just move the handlebars and keep my feet up. Keeping it simple aids in faster reactions.
__________________
42 years on a Heinkel Tourist
scootrboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 06:19 AM   #48
MotoTex
Miles of Smiles
 
MotoTex's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Tool Shed
Oddometer: 1,518
Quote:
Originally Posted by scootrboi View Post
Sliding around on the seat to shift body weight is an excellent way to lose control or fall off the bike. I just move the handlebars and keep my feet up. Keeping it simple aids in faster reactions.
+1

What some are talking about in regard to moving the butt is what I would consider an advanced technique. Something to employ only after you have reached the limit of what the simple technique using the bars will provide.

A rider who is uncomfortable with initiating a turn using the bars has no business trying to learn an advanced method first.
__________________

This is The Internet. Confirm for yourself anything you may see while visiting this strange and uncertain land.

MotoTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 06:28 AM   #49
henshao
Bained
 
henshao's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2013
Location: The Commonwealth
Oddometer: 412
Most of it I suspect is target fixation. it is really hard to not look at the shit you're going to run into. Coming into a turn if you have even a hint of doubt your eyes will snap to that guardrail, tree, parked car, whatever. That is unless you've made that turn millions of times or you can fight your eyes to where they belong, the inside edge.
henshao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 06:33 AM   #50
Jim Moore
Beastly Adventurer
 
Jim Moore's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Jax, FL
Oddometer: 12,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by scootrboi View Post
Sliding around on the seat to shift body weight is an excellent way to lose control or fall off the bike. I just move the handlebars and keep my feet up. Keeping it simple aids in faster reactions.
What?
__________________
Jim Moore
Jax, FL

Pay the lady, PirateJohn, you thieving piece of garbage.
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=949341
Jim Moore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 06:56 AM   #51
scootrboi
Beastly Adventurer
 
scootrboi's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Vermont
Oddometer: 1,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
What?
Being the pilot of a low power machine (but a good handler) gets me a lot of symbolic pats on the head from riders on large high powered machines who often have less experience riding. It is quite annoying. What is not obvious is that being on an old scooter I am often hotrodding around, conserving momentum, preparing for hills, running at redline, and countersteering vigorously. Evasive maneuvers when I am faced with the clumsy and inattentive driving of others fits right in with the kind of energy that is required to keep a vintage scooter in play on modern roads. When it comes to turning, nothing tips the bike over more reliably than turning the front wheel. I am always sitting with weight on the handlebars, thinking in terms of the front wheel. Shifting weight, changing from left to right buttock, this kind of tactic doesn't work when I want to change direction quickly. I am not a fancy rider. I keep my body in line with the bike, lean exactly with it, work the handlebars and keep my feet off the road. As luck would have it, I am usually close to the posted speed limits, so my maneuvers are made with reasonable reaction time and can be occasionally creative. I had a large motorcycle for a while but got rid of it because it was heavy, fast, and infinitely powerful, and I felt strongly I would get killed on it.
__________________
42 years on a Heinkel Tourist
scootrboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 08:35 AM   #52
farmerstu
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Minnesota west central
Oddometer: 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
+1

What some are talking about in regard to moving the butt is what I would consider an advanced technique. Something to employ only after you have reached the limit of what the simple technique using the bars will provide.

A rider who is uncomfortable with initiating a turn using the bars has no business trying to learn an advanced method first.
+2
shifting your ass off the seat is fine when setting up for a known corner or preplanned maneuver. if this if the way you handle every maneuver sooner or later it will end badly. shifting yourself around takes a lot more time to do than a yank on the bars. when a car pulls out in front of you , it's time you may not have.
first learn to ride correctly. than learn to ride fast, best on the track doesn't mean best on the street. that includes mental attitude and where you look.
farmerstu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 09:19 AM   #53
Paebr332
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Location: Shippensburg, PA
Oddometer: 723
Quote:
Originally Posted by henshao View Post
Most of it I suspect is target fixation. it is really hard to not look at the shit you're going to run into. Coming into a turn if you have even a hint of doubt your eyes will snap to that guardrail, tree, parked car, whatever. That is unless you've made that turn millions of times or you can fight your eyes to where they belong, the inside edge.
I had this happen to me once. Came into a turn a little hot and my monkey brain fixated on the mailbox dead ahead on the outside of the apex. Lo and behold, the bike started to head straight for that mailbox mounted on the sturdy 4"x4" post.

Fortunately the trained part of my brain screamed "Look through the turn!!!" I turned my head to look through the turn and the bike magically turned right through the curve, easy-peasy. I missed the mailbox by a mile.

I am glad I took training classes that drilled "look through the turn" into my brain. Without them I expect I would have watched the bike roll straight into that mailbox with me on board for the fun.
Paebr332 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 09:38 AM   #54
RxZ
Legal Drug Dealer
 
RxZ's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Tyler, TX
Oddometer: 1,803
I find that riding my mountain bike on the local bike trail is helping me to look through the turn. Especially since most of the turns are trails no more than three feet wide, with trees on each side. Every time I look at a tree while turning I typically get very close to nailing it. Looking through the turn I normally have no issues with the trees.
__________________
2002 Yamaha FZ1
RxZ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 10:30 AM   #55
farmerstu
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Minnesota west central
Oddometer: 361
a teaching tool i use to take two foam sticks ( they sell them for kids swim toys, 4 or 5 feet long ,5 or 6 inches in diameter, brightly colored) put them in the windows of two cars parked ten feet apart. roll the windows up to hold the tubes sticking straight sidways out from the cars. , adjust them so a rider has only a few inches to spare when riding between the ends of the tubes. they quickly learn to look ahead and not at the tubes.

I
H I H
H-- I --H
H I H
I
crappy illustration but the Hs are cars the -- are the foam sticks and the Is are the path of the mc.
farmerstu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 01:50 PM   #56
PT Rider
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: NW Washington State
Oddometer: 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
I think he meant this literally as an alternative to counter-steering. Trying to use weight shift to steer the bike, instead of counter-steering, IS a poor alternative. This is the primary reason many riders miss the turn and later believe "the bike just wouldn't make the turn."

A quick read through the counter-steering threads would find just how many vehemently argue (wrongly) that initiating a turn with weight shift is just as effective as counter-steering. As you point out above, it is almost impossible to steer with weight shift without making counter-steering inputs at the bars. However, I'd wager that some riders trying to weight shift might actually fight the turn by counter-counter-steering at the bars as a fear reflex. Mostly because they don't understand that they have to drive wheels out from under the CG on the side that is away from the turn they want to make, and inevitably will not.

This has nothing to do with shifting body position to prevent hard parts from dragging at steep lean angles. (something only those who already grasp the use and benefit of counter-steering will employ as a technique)
No, but try this...very carefully. When riding pretty slowly, just steer to turn. Steer left to turn left. You'll feel very tentative and have to move your upper body to the inside to counterbalance the centrifugal force. Try this too fast, and you'll end up in the weeds. Really poor way to ride, and it's all some riders know...or think they know.

I'm not sure about target fixation. Yes, it certainly is real, but it is presuming that a rider actually knows how to turn their bike if they'd only look where they need to go, not where they're about to go. If the rider doesn't know how to turn his bike, it doesn't matter where he looks.
__________________
It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
Henry David Thoreau
PT Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 02:39 PM   #57
Albie
Kool Aid poisoner
 
Albie's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: Upstate SC
Oddometer: 8,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by scootrboi View Post
Sliding around on the seat to shift body weight is an excellent way to lose control or fall off the bike. I just move the handlebars and keep my feet up. Keeping it simple aids in faster reactions.
Shifting your weight, or "weighting the peg" as it's commonly referred to is a very important turning technique. You seem to be confusing it with hanging off. These are TWO SEPARATE techniques. The first allows the bike to turn in quicker, the other is to give you more lean angle. I do the first all the time on the street and on the track, I only do the second on the track. Now of course there are two methods for weighting the peg. For street riding you weight the inside peg, for dirt riding you weight the outside peg. If you are falling off from shifting your weight, then you probably shouldn't even WALK without wearing protective gear and a helmet.
__________________
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.

Another day, another foot injury!
Albie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 02:41 PM   #58
baloneyskin daddy
bikaholic
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: southcentral PA.
Oddometer: 1,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by PT Rider View Post
No, but try this...very carefully. When riding pretty slowly, just steer to turn. Steer left to turn left. You'll feel very tentative and have to move your upper body to the inside to counterbalance the centrifugal force. Try this too fast, and you'll end up in the weeds. Really poor way to ride, and it's all some riders know...or think they know.

I'm not sure about target fixation. Yes, it certainly is real, but it is presuming that a rider actually knows how to turn their bike if they'd only look where they need to go, not where they're about to go. If the rider doesn't know how to turn his bike, it doesn't matter where he looks.
I also think target fixation is overused .I believe in a lot of cases with new or lower skilled riders that they don't realize that they are countersteering when they ride because it happens naturally. Then in a situation they aren't prepared for they "think" about what they're about to do and their mind says turn right to go right or vice versa and they head straight for what they want to miss.
baloneyskin daddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 03:00 PM   #59
MotoTex
Miles of Smiles
 
MotoTex's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Tool Shed
Oddometer: 1,518
Quote:
Originally Posted by PT Rider View Post
No, but try this...very carefully. When riding pretty slowly, just steer to turn. Steer left to turn left. You'll feel very tentative and have to move your upper body to the inside to counterbalance the centrifugal force. Try this too fast, and you'll end up in the weeds. Really poor way to ride, and it's all some riders know...or think they know.
Well, no matter how it is described I think we are on the same page. Many riders get through turns based more on hope and belief than by skill and understanding.

There is no way to initiate a turn on a motorcycle without moving the contact patches out from under the CG to the opposite side from the direction of the desired lean/turn. When the CG is to one side of the fulcrum the bike will lean to that side. As will any object that is balanced over a point.

Fast, slow, doesn't matter. I argued against this in a counter-steering thread, once, then observed more carefully and found I was mistaken. Physics only works the one way. The rules don't change based upon velocity.

A cycle will not turn until the bike is leaned.

A cycle will only lean by initially steering opposite in order to move the fulcrum (contact patch) away from the direction of the turn. (true even for darksiders using the wrong oil and low on blinker fluid)

If you stand beside a bike on the right and steer it slightly to the right and try to push the bike, it initially will try to lean to left as the front wheel moves to the right of the CG. Use some rope to fix the bars in place and eliminate the human factor. Video the experiment from directly behind. See what happens.

If what you are describing seems different this experiment should clear up any misperception.
__________________

This is The Internet. Confirm for yourself anything you may see while visiting this strange and uncertain land.


MotoTex screwed with this post 01-27-2014 at 03:05 PM
MotoTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 05:32 PM   #60
JohnCW
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Oddometer: 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
A quick read through the counter-steering threads would find just how many vehemently argue (wrongly) that initiating a turn with weight shift is just as effective as counter-steering. As you point out above, it is almost impossible to steer with weight shift without making counter-steering inputs at the bars. However, I'd wager that some riders trying to weight shift might actually fight the turn by counter-counter-steering at the bars as a fear reflex.
Hi MT,
And why after thousands and thousands of posts debating weigh-shift v's counter steering does the debate continue? The reason is because both work. You can steer a motorcycle with no hands on the bars at all. A heavy muffler on one side of a bike will make it turn that way rather than run straight with no hands on the bars.

Counter-steering works. So what not utilise an appropriate technique that shift the centre of gravity and automatically induces counter-steering.
JohnCW is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 04:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014