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Old 01-23-2014, 09:16 PM   #331
waveydavey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrdyke View Post
Well...no. Not according to YOU. You've excluded this possibility
Now, dont go backpedaling and start to allow other reasons why someone might choose to not wear gear. You made your bed. You stated your case. You cited that it must be peer pressure, which is just a fancy way of saying that these people are not capable of thinking for themselves. Or that they're just foolish.
Frankly, I dont have the time or patience to go back to the beginning of this thread and multi-quote all the cheap shots taken by gear nazis. If you're interested, go back and count the times when the words, ignorant, peer pressure, foolish, stupid, fashion, etc have been used.
Not once has any of the gear nazis acknowledged that someone riding without gear might actually be a completely sane person, who knows the ramifications of his actions, but has decided to live his life OUTSIDE the plastic bubble in which others to choose to live. Not once, that is...until you just did, and only because you didn't like the corner you painted yourself into.
And honestly, the answer was in the second post and has been repeated only a couple of times by others here. Now, this forum being ADVrider, which is notoriously famous for HD bashing members, is filled with folks who proudly shout,"I'm ATTGAT!" and then the peer group chimes in and pats themselves on their backs cuz they are, too. Well....aren't we sooooo much smarter and cooler than those Harley guys.!!!
One could contend that this forum is a huge support group for people who are so afraid of getting a little boo boo that they have to wear lime green or hi viz pink jumpsuits and then rely on their like minded friends to tell them they look cool, not ridiculous.
CD

Exactly.
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Old 01-23-2014, 11:16 PM   #332
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^^^^
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:00 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by cybrdyke View Post
You cited that it must be peer pressure, which is just a fancy way of saying that these people are not capable of thinking for themselves. Or that they're just foolish.
No not at all. That's just your interpretation of what "peer pressure" means, not mine.

I said every single one of us is influenced by our peers to some degree, no matter what our beliefs. I acknowledged I was no different, and I can think for myself and don't believe I'm stupid.

You may belief your a total individual, making all you own independent rational decisions. I also though that way once. But the older I get the more I have come to recognize just how much social, peer, and lets call them subconscious forces shape us. The rational mind may thinks its in total control, but alas its not.

Perhaps best to agree to disagree.
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:45 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
No not at all. That's just your interpretation of what "peer pressure" means, not mine.

I said every single one of us is influenced by our peers to some degree, no matter what our beliefs. I acknowledged I was no different, and I can think for myself and don't believe I'm stupid.

You may belief your a total individual, making all you own independent rational decisions. I also though that way once. But the older I get the more I have come to recognize just how much social, peer, and lets call them subconscious forces shape us. The rational mind may thinks its in total control, but alas its not.

Perhaps best to agree to disagree.
Hah! I do not agree.
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Old 01-24-2014, 03:35 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by waveydavey View Post
Hah! I do not agree.
Did you ever watch the cartoon characters Spike and Chester as a kid........

Good one Chester!
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Old 01-26-2014, 10:34 AM   #336
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Pillion of a two-up couple on a Harley at a gas station asked me the classic... "Aren't you hot in all that stuff?" to which I replied, "Aren't you afraid of getting hurt without all this stuff?" she answered "We never fall down".

I looked at that shiny chrome bike and thought that might just actually be reasonably true. Personally, I gear up because I do fall, and will continue to fall, because I push it a bit sometimes on my Dual Sport. They might not; their bike is less capable of pushing it, and doesn't reward when it is pushed (an obvious generalization and stereotype). So at least the "odds" are significantly in their favor.

I have a old 700 Shadow besides my Dual Sport. It's a handling slug made for cruising and it serves it's purpose just fine, by creating smiles on a hot day. I've ridden it several times in shorts T-shirt and sneakers on rural two-lane, so I get it.
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Old 01-26-2014, 12:31 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Apple Jam View Post
Pillion of a two-up couple on a Harley at a gas station asked me the classic... "Aren't you hot in all that stuff?" to which I replied, "Aren't you afraid of getting hurt without all this stuff?" she answered "We never fall down".
Yeah,
I don't "fall down"either.....................



......................But others have knocked me down. Never say never



Deciding to not wear gear is a choice, justifying not wearing gear is denial. Do as you wish, just be honest with yourself and others.
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:38 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by windmill View Post
Yeah,
I don't "fall down"either.....................



......................But others have knocked me down. Never say never



Deciding to not wear gear is a choice, justifying not wearing gear is denial. Do as you wish, just be honest with yourself and others.
I ain't scared
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Old 01-30-2014, 03:04 AM   #339
Bill Harris
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Quote:
she answered "We never fall down".

I looked at that shiny chrome bike and thought...
...Noobs.



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Old 01-30-2014, 08:14 AM   #340
windmill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waveydavey View Post
I ain't scared
That''s good,
You should be comfortable with your choices, otherwise you're doing it wrong. It seems fear makes some folks get so focused on gear they forget the basics, or that no amount of gear makes riding "safe".
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Old 02-04-2014, 08:12 AM   #341
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Fyyff

First, it is obvious that protective equipment mitigates some of the risks of riding a motorcycle, so also does attitude, training, experience, skill, and aptitude.

As protective equipment mitigates risk, I would say that riding ATGATT is an intelligent choice and also that refusing to ride with protective gear is an unintelligent or stupid choice. This is necessarily a subjective judgment based on the knowledge that protective equipment mitigates risk and my personal views on what levels of risk are acceptable. However, the exact same form of argument is equally valid from anyone arguing that driving a cage mitigates the risks of riding a motorcycle.

The OP is asking why people make stupid choices and implicit in his question is his personal judgment that many Harley riders are stupid for not riding ATGATT. Simultaneously the OP ignoring his own stupid choice to ride a motorcycle in the first place. Why do individuals make decisions, informed or otherwise, to engage in dangerous behaviors?

I think most Harley riders know that it is rather foolish to ride without protective gear and then they get defensive about the topic. My brother-in-law, a Harley rider, once stated that he did not ride with protective clothing because his medical insurance would pay for skin graphs but his motorcycle insurance would not pay a thin dime for a new jacket. Is this stupid or just a defensive rationalization in an attempt to justify his personal choice? I am more concerned about the safety of my sister riding pillion than the choices he makes for himself. At the same time I think the vast majority of motorcycle riders understand that making the choice to ride a motorcycle is stupid in that it is more dangerous than driving a car, and we also tend to get defensive.

Please note that risk is a continuum and that no behavior is inherently safe and no behavior is inherently dangerous. There is no point on the risk spectrum that clearly discriminates between a safe behavior and a dangerous behavior. At best, all we can say is that behavior A is somewhat more dangerous than behavior B, and that behavior C is somewhat safer than behavior D. Some behaviors entail more risk than others although it is not always possible to know which is safer if there are no data available to quantify the comparative levels of risk.

As an axiomatic principle, I accept that every man has a God given unalienable right to live his life as he chooses, the right to pursue happiness, and as a consequence I assert that no man has a right to determine what level of risk is acceptable for any other man. Moreover, I think it a moral evil to infringe this unalienable human right and I will be damned if I will let an evil man tell me that I can't ride a motorcycle (with or without a helmet), or screw lots of beautiful women (ugly women are not a consideration), or smoke dope (that ugly woman is looking better), or climb mountains, or ... so on.

To potential critics who think I am stupid for choosing to ride instead of drive, I will happily admit the validity of their opinions and will assert that they have every right to comport their own personal behaviors with the level of risk that they judge to be acceptable, but they have no right at all to make these same decisions for me; FYYFF. For anyone who continually bashes Harley riders for choosing to ride without gear, FYYFF also. No matter how stupid I might personally think this choice, it is their choice to make and not mine, and I can not rationally expect any man to respect my right to make choices about how to live my life if I have no respect for the choices others make. No Harley rider choosing to ride without gear has any obligation to justify that personal choice to anyone.

RHanson screwed with this post 02-04-2014 at 08:17 AM
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Old 02-04-2014, 08:37 AM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RHanson View Post
The OP is asking why people make stupid choices and implicit in his question is his personal judgment that many Harley riders are stupid for not riding ATGATT.
That's actually not in the OP's post. He was very careful to avoid exactly that.
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:42 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by foxtrapper View Post
That's actually not in the OP's post. He was very careful to avoid exactly that.
You are absolutely correct that those words where not in the OP as he was painfully careful to not call Harley riders stupid for not choosing to ride ATGATT, but that is exactly the predicate of his question which is why so many Harley riders get defensive when asked to "explain", as a proxy for "justify", why many Harley riders make the personal choice to ride without protective equipment.

Risk evaluation is relative and the vast majority of people judge the wisdom of the decisions others make based on their own personal evaluation of the levels of risk they find acceptable. Those who choose to engage in dangerous behaviors, dangerous by our own subjective judgment, are stupid or foolish while those who criticize our own behaviors as dangerous are just a bunch of scared wimps living lives dictated by their fears. It is hard to step back from our own evaluations of risk to look at the topic objectively. If a behavior is dramatically outside the level of risk we find acceptable, then it might go beyond being just stupid and become characterized as crazy or even admirable; I think BASE jumpers are just nuts and I admire them for their fearlessness. Do you honestly think the OP admires Harley riders for their lack of gear? We make choices for ourselves, others who make the same choice are affirming our decision, and those who make the opposite choice are critical of our decision. It is only natural to look at risk from our own personal and subjective judgment of acceptable levels of risk, but I think it is important to understand the process in order to maintain at least a minimal level of respect for the right each man has to make these same judgments for himself.

When we fail to do so we end up with politicals like Michael Bloomberg, FYYFF, dictating how big a soft-drink we can purchase at a 7-Eleven or a state telling us that we must use a government approved DOT helmet. I would reflect on the reality that the range of personal choices we are "allowed" to make by our governments are continually shrinking and I personally find this chafing and oppressive.

Not only should we consider the answer to the OP's question, we should understand why these questions get asked over and over again. The first response by cybrdyke, "Because they dont want to", is still the best and I just want people to comprehend why this is so.
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Old 02-04-2014, 10:03 AM   #344
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Seems to me me "harley fashion" is what dictates many harley riders choice of gear. Which is great, fashion shows are fun!

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Old 02-07-2014, 06:14 AM   #345
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Tragically, yesterday there was an accident involving a motorcyclist and a garbage truck. This happened mid-afternoon. Details were not available yet this morning; other than the rider was not wearing a helmet and is in critical condition. From the one photo I saw, the bike looked like a harley, what was left of it.

I ride that road several times a week: The road is 6 lanes wide, three in each direction. Garbage trucks are common there because there's a refuse center in that area. The garbage trucks are slow moving, they don't "dart" out in front of traffic, they don't change lanes unexpectedly and they are BIG. I've tried to imagine how the heck this accident could have happened without success. The only conclusions I can draw are:
1. The rider must have had zero riding skills/awareness, or was impaired.
2. I'll bet he wishes he was wearing a helmet at least.
3. I hope he lives.
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