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Old 02-04-2014, 02:11 PM   #61
JohnCW
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
Some will dispute this, but miles per issue fuel injection is miles above carbs for lack of issues.
That's not my experience. Post say mid 1980's and a carby is virtually bullet proof in reliability terms if someone hasn't stuffed around with it/them. What does go wrong with them, other than crappy fuel being stuck in.

How can FI be "miles above" something that doesn't have any real problems reliability wise?
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Old 02-04-2014, 02:23 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
That's not my experience. Post say mid 1980's and a carby is virtually bullet proof in reliability terms if someone hasn't stuffed around with it/them. What does go wrong with them, other than crappy fuel being stuck in.

How can FI be "miles above" something that doesn't have any real problems reliability wise?
Carbs are bullet proof, especially when the fuel if properly filtered as dirt & poor fuel are the only deal stoppers. The longest running bikes in the world - Honda Cubs use carbs.
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eakins screwed with this post 02-04-2014 at 02:40 PM
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Old 02-04-2014, 02:29 PM   #63
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what's missing in above assessment is COST ... let's assume you are correct in reliability per miles delivered for FI vs carb bikes. for most folks who are not technically astute as your self costs becomes a real factor in keeping that newer BMW running.

for instance if someone has ABS issues ... costs to fix at dealer could exceed value of BMW motorcycle. if it happened to me fix would be low cost as I'd dive into circuit board and come up with a fix. other option is to send to a ABS board specialist for repair at low costs.

same thing that's happened to brand new cars has happened to motorcycles. going to electric driven sensors requiring special code readers to diagnose. even someone technically astute has no choice but to visit dealership. unless someone is willing to make the investment for BMW specific electronic tools.

above translates into higher costs of ownership for most folks. look at what's happened with all the final drive failures on R1200...
Who said anything about cost? I purposely tried to make it ONE metric! I am not missing anything.

If you want the whole range of issues I already said the cheapest bike that fits your bill will likely be the most cost efficient, and might be reliable enough to fit you needs.

You can argue all kinds of things here. But take the cheapest dual sport available, or better yet, take a first year KLR and compare it to this year's KLR and this year's KLR will be more reliable mile for mile!
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Old 02-04-2014, 02:31 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
That's not my experience. Post say mid 1980's and a carby is virtually bullet proof in reliability terms if someone hasn't stuffed around with it/them. What does go wrong with them, other than crappy fuel being stuck in.

How can FI be "miles above" something that doesn't have any real problems reliability wise?
You can't possibly say that you will get 150K trouble free miles from a carb, bike after bike. You can say that about a FI system. No bike goes 50K miles with no issues at all with the carbs.
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Old 02-04-2014, 03:20 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
No bike goes 50K miles with no issues at all with the carbs.
The Bings on my BMW have been trouble-free for over 70K miles.
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Old 02-04-2014, 03:38 PM   #66
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Newer bikes may last for more miles, but you had better put those miles on in a hurry. New technology does not hold up over time, and it is not designed to be kept going over a long period of time. Old bikes can be kept going virtually forever, depending on whether parts are available, but newer bikes become too expensive to be worth fixing in a fairly short time. A carb will last a lifetime. A FI ECU, which costs more than a new carb, has a fairly short lifetime when measured in years, and will probably no longer be available if you need a new one 20 years from now. New bikes are designed to be disposable and recycleable. Rather than fix them after a certain point, you are just supposed to replace them. Honda has started setting the lifespan of their new bikes at 10 years, after that they will no longer work on them or sell you parts for them. There is a definite growing trend in this direction.
While a lot of dealerships won't work on bikes older than 10 years, I have been able to get parts at different dealers for older Hondas, Suzukis and Beemers still. Maybe your local dealership won't stock them, but many do.
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Old 02-04-2014, 03:41 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
You can't possibly say that you will get 150K trouble free miles from a carb, bike after bike. You can say that about a FI system. No bike goes 50K miles with no issues at all with the carbs.
The carbs on my ZX9 went 45K before I sold it. I'll bet they're still working fine.
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Old 02-04-2014, 03:41 PM   #68
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The Bings on my BMW have been trouble-free for over 70K miles.
I stand corrected. Maybe I should have said few instead of no.

No replaced gaskets, seals, valves or any other service other than syncing?

Carbs tend to not do as well sitting unused, but that wasn't really the point.
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Old 02-04-2014, 04:26 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
Who said anything about cost? I purposely tried to make it ONE metric! I am not missing anything.

If you want the whole range of issues I already said the cheapest bike that fits your bill will likely be the most cost efficient, and might be reliable enough to fit you needs.

You can argue all kinds of things here. But take the cheapest dual sport available, or better yet, take a first year KLR and compare it to this year's KLR and this year's KLR will be more reliable mile for mile!
using your logic .. who said anything about finding the cheapest bike available?

come on now .. for most folks costs to keep a motorcycle running is an issue. so what's the costs for a final drive not under warranty for R1200 at the dealership? what about costs to fix ABS on same bike?

have we reached ridiculous costs to fix yet? and we've only mentioned two common issues for R1200. shall we go down the list of other common issues for R1200? so according to your logic, it doesn't count if you've gone say 40k miles on R1200 and are now being towed to a dealership .. with a probable repair bill that approaches 1/2 value of bike.
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Old 02-04-2014, 04:43 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
using your logic .. who said anything about finding the cheapest bike available?

come on now .. for most folks costs to keep a motorcycle running is an issue. so what's the costs for a final drive not under warranty for R1200 at the dealership? what about costs to fix ABS on same bike?

have we reached ridiculous costs to fix yet? and we've only mentioned two common issues for R1200. shall we go down the list of other common issues for R1200? so according to your logic, it doesn't count if you've gone say 40k miles on R1200 and are now being towed to a dealership .. with a probable repair bill that approaches 1/2 value of bike.
All you've done is to make me respect my new Bonnie more. I'd trust it on a long haul long before I trusted a beemer with all the new issues they seem to have.

That said, in general a new bike, with efi and made with modern metals in the motor and tranny department is going to be more reliable than an 80's or earlier bike. Not as easy to fix, sure, but you won't have to fix it so much, so it's kind of a moot point.

Just my .02. Your mileage may vary.
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Old 02-04-2014, 05:12 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
No bike goes 50K miles with no issues at all with the carbs.

um, yes they can, very easily

my '82 Yamaha XV920r did

my '99 SV650 did it almost 3 times over
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Old 02-04-2014, 05:16 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
You can't possibly say that you will get 150K trouble free miles from a carb, bike after bike. You can say that about a FI system. No bike goes 50K miles with no issues at all with the carbs.
And you can't say that you'll get 150K trouble free from FI, bike after bike.

My current 25 year old bike is getting a top end rebuild for strictly performance reasons, nothing to do with reliability. Only because the carbs were off I removed the float bowls to judge their condition. Wasn't even any sediment in the bottomed of the bowls to speak of. Blew that out, set the float levels, new bowls gaskets, good for another 25 years (and they didn't need to be touched).

The main point I want to contest is the notion that as a generalization 'old technology' is less reliable than 'new technology'. You can't even say old old technology was unreliable. What you could say is that British motorcycles (just an example) pre 1970's were very unreliable. This was more to do with manufacturing standards and attitude that the technology. The Japanese soon changed that from the 1970's onward. I never had a single mechanical problem with my 1972 CB750. It may have handled like a pig, had no brakes, no light to speak of, etc, but it always went, never missed a beat.
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Old 02-04-2014, 05:36 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
using your logic .. who said anything about finding the cheapest bike available?

come on now .. for most folks costs to keep a motorcycle running is an issue. so what's the costs for a final drive not under warranty for R1200 at the dealership? what about costs to fix ABS on same bike?

have we reached ridiculous costs to fix yet? and we've only mentioned two common issues for R1200. shall we go down the list of other common issues for R1200? so according to your logic, it doesn't count if you've gone say 40k miles on R1200 and are now being towed to a dealership .. with a probable repair bill that approaches 1/2 value of bike.
"I" never brought up BMW at all, others have. I refuse to debate BMWs because I am often labeled a fanboy, facts be damned.

I am sticking strictly to reliability, not costs. You can debate costs to repair all you like. I'll pass as the costs are a moving target impossible to pin down the criteria of.
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Old 02-04-2014, 05:38 PM   #74
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And you can't say that you'll get 150K trouble free from FI, bike after bike.

My current 25 year old bike is getting a top end rebuild for strictly performance reasons, nothing to do with reliability. Only because the carbs were off I removed the float bowls to judge their condition. Wasn't even any sediment in the bottomed of the bowls to speak of. Blew that out, set the float levels, new bowls gaskets, good for another 25 years (and they didn't need to be touched).

The main point I want to contest is the notion that as a generalization 'old technology' is less reliable than 'new technology'. You can't even say old old technology was unreliable. What you could say is that British motorcycles (just an example) pre 1970's were very unreliable. This was more to do with manufacturing standards and attitude that the technology. The Japanese soon changed that from the 1970's onward. I never had a single mechanical problem with my 1972 CB750. It may have handled like a pig, had no brakes, no light to speak of, etc, but it always went, never missed a beat.
I have 350K total, all over 50K miles, on 7 bikes with FI, not one single FI issue. I have and do own carb bikes, and all of them required constant attention to the carbs to keep running at peak. Just MY experience.
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Old 02-04-2014, 06:42 PM   #75
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I think JVB is equating a leaky carb gasket and subsequent need for rebuild with an injector or fuel pump or ECU failure.

To me the first is a degraded condition which won't prevent you from getting home and doing a very inexpensive repair while the second can shut you down cold and cost you a very large amount of money.


I prefer degradation myself :-)
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