ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-04-2014, 08:07 PM   #76
tlub
Gnarly Adventurer
 
tlub's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
Location: Madison, WI
Oddometer: 168
Carbs and reliability

Well, my very small sample, from which one may or may not generalize is this: R75/5 carbs: (35 years, 180,000 miles) one choke gasket, replaced with homemade item, replaced floats with alcohol-proof set; replace diaphragms every ten years or so.
R90/6: 60,000 miles, 30 years (time off for young kids): Diaphragms only.
R69S: Only about 20,000 miles: Rebuilt carbs once in 30 years.
R50: Only about 10,000 miles. Rebuilt carbs once in 30 years. .
Honda 350 #1: About 8000 miles. Pinholes in float from corrosion, fixed on road and replaced later.
Honda 350 #2: About 25,000 miles. No carb issues at all.
Harley Aermacchi 250 SprintH: 17,000 miles. (yowza!) No carb attention. (but lots of other attention).
Carburetor breakdowns that left me stranded: Zero.
It's hard to improve on zero.

Don't ask me about aftermarket electronic ignitions, though. 4 strandings there.
Interestingly, I think I have had more car carburetor trouble than motorcycle carburetor trouble, even though I probably have more miles on bike carbs than on car carbs. Zero trouble with car FI, though.
tlub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2014, 09:03 PM   #77
JimVonBaden
"Cool" Aid!
 
JimVonBaden's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Alexandria, VA
Oddometer: 50,765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripsteruser View Post
I think JVB is equating a leaky carb gasket and subsequent need for rebuild with an injector or fuel pump or ECU failure.

To me the first is a degraded condition which won't prevent you from getting home and doing a very inexpensive repair while the second can shut you down cold and cost you a very large amount of money.


I prefer degradation myself :-)
Not really. ANY issue is an issue. Reliability, by the definition I am using, is any issue, whether it strands you or not. Any other definition is a matter of degrees, and therefore subjective and would make this conversation too muddy to pick one over the other.

For example, how bad is bad? I am a requirements guy. Definitions have 'by their very definition, specific meanings. Many here are trying to make equivalent definitions where it is all about what is an issue to them. Clarify it by saying that an issue is any issue that requires attention, either immediate or future (leaky carbs or intermittent O2 sensors) that may not strand you, but are degrading the optimal performance of the bike.
JimVonBaden is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2014, 09:53 PM   #78
JohnCW
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Oddometer: 1,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
I have 350K total, all over 50K miles, on 7 bikes with FI, not one single FI issue. I have and do own carb bikes, and all of them required constant attention to the carbs to keep running at peak. Just MY experience.
I ride a Kawasaki ZR750 with carbies, and regularly ride with a guy on a 2012 model Z750 with FI. Basically the modern equivalent of mine. Mine is supposed to produce 80 h.p. and his 106 hp. On the road there is virtually no difference in performance between our two bikes.

One hot day on a club ride in the middle of nowhere his FI bike just cut-out. The front of the ride wasn't aware of this and continued on, with those behind him stopping. After a while of scathing our heads, someone decided they should catch up with the lead group to tell them what had happened. The message that got passed on was the guy on the Kawasaki 750 has broken down. I spent months telling people it wasn't me, because everyone just assumed it must have been the 750 with the 'old technology'.

It was only after many attempts to get it started the owner said the fuel pump usually makes a noise when he turns the key on, and it wasn't. We pulled the fuses, all were ok, put them back in, and it started straight up. To this day he thinks it was a fuse problem, I think pulling the fuse reset the system.

Virtually all the bad rap for carbies belongs to the time of premix two-strokes. People left the fuel tap on, or didn't drain the carby, and the fuel evaporated of leaving an oil sludge in the carby which eventually killed it. This was easily prevented by turning of the fuel, and running the carby dry. This problem disappeared when oil injection was introduced.
JohnCW is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 06:08 AM   #79
markk53
jack of all trades...
 
markk53's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Delaware Ohio
Oddometer: 8,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
Old reliable is more a fond memory than a reality. There will be arguments to this about the ease of repairs, but the truth is, easy repairs are still repairs. Newer bike are much more reliable in the long run, and the right bikes are pretty simple to repair when they do break!

Well, let's temper that with a few thoughts:

Old reliable is great - if reliable. I have an old First Gear Timbuktu enduro jacket that is absolutely fabulous and irreplacable because no one is doing anything like it. I love it and hate to see it deteriorate. It is a waist length jacket (Eisenhower jacket for those old enough to understand) with half length zippered sleeve vents and full width cape vent, a snap in 3/4 sleeve liner that can be stuffed in a pocket on the lower back and a zipper/snap front that could allow more air flow by snapping and not zipping. It had two side pockets that also had hand warmer pocket openings, an internal 20 oz bladder pocket and bladder for water with a straw that came through a grommet on the coat front, an angled right side chest pocket for an enduro check card, and finally a sleeve pocket at bicept level which was probably a waste. Very very useful and functional. Nothing like it out there right now.

Too much of the stuff is over engineered with too many features that are a waste to many of us, just adding cost to the item. The only thing my old reliable Timbuktu could have used was being waterproof. It was the perfect 3 season jacket.

Of course when old gets old and starts to crap out then it isn't reliable any longer and may have to be replaced. Then it isn't better. But right now in comparison to other jackets it is still "good old stuff".

When it comes to bikes again reliablilty comes into play:

If an old bike keeps on running fine, where is the problem? So what if one has to spend say $600 on suspension updates, if they like the bike it is worth it and the updates won't really lose function either. Heck, what are the updates for most bikes still today? Suspension! Get the forks valved and a $600 shock! Same as 1980, but twin shocks even now are only about $350 for good ones. Forks are more easily worked on with old bikes. Besides we don't expect 2014 suspension on a 1978 motorcycle.

By the way, when an ignition takes an electronic crap it doesn't seem to matter what year you have - you're screwed. Now with points and plugs you have a chance to get going from the side of the road, but it is more likely to be a problem eventually. Still I could substitute a car coil, ballast resistor, and condenser for the ignition on many old bikes. Had 'em on my MotoGuzzi and a few I knew had 'em on RD350/400s. They worked. Try that with a 2014!

Functionally in casual riding and commuting an old bike can easily be as good as a new one provided both are reliable mechanically and electronically. Much like cars. It is only when you start to push the envelope to an extreme or if your ego needs massaged that the new one is truly better. An 80 Honda Interstate won't hold a candle to a 14 GoldWing, nor will an 87 CBR600F Hurricane hold a candle to a 14 CBR600RR when you start to push the limits they're meant to approach. But to start 'em up and ride 'em casually... all can do the job.

By the way, I'm thinking my 78 SR500 is likely on par and as good as the modern Royal Enfields that had kick start.
__________________
Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

Mark - klx678
95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550

markk53 screwed with this post 02-05-2014 at 06:18 AM
markk53 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 06:31 AM   #80
markk53
jack of all trades...
 
markk53's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Delaware Ohio
Oddometer: 8,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodweiser View Post
I could probably break down and rebuild my 2012
with only tools from the local hardware store too.


Not to bash you personally Skyshadow,
I just hear sentiments like yours quite frequently.

Personally I'm quite fond of low tech myself.
Hence the harley.

The black box that burnt out. What at the local hardware store will fix that? Seems Harley has that stuff too. And what about all those special tools that Harleys need. I remember there was one that was a C shaped box end that was needed to remove some cylinder nuts or somthing like that. Just sayin' that Hardware store thing is quite a misconception about Harleys as much as the misconception that metric bikes are more reliable than a Harley. Just ain't true. Oh, I bought most all of the tools I have for my metrics at Sears and places like that - you know... hardware stores. And good ones even carry metric fasteners that fit too.

To me that is the only "new tech" issue - electronics issues. As long as the electronics can be dealt with, all is good. One example of a serious issue would be the electronic ignitions on the old Laverdas (new ain't all that recent). The ignition cannot be replaced. It would take serious work to fix that issue with something from another source since the stator is unavailable now.

It's all about reliability and what can be fixed.

Fact is the only negative to old bikes has more to do with performance. Bigger fork legs with better damping. Real shocks that work - not counting some cruisers. Frames built for stiffness instead of to look like Norton Featherbeds. Machining tolerances for frames that tightened up handling - old Kaw Z1 had the flex flyer reputation because of sloppy frame fits and poor bracing. Plus the old bikes were truly UJM. They weren't tourers nor were they sport bikes. They were general use motorcycles. They did general use as good as anything going now. When new, much like what is new now, they started up, went in gear and rolled down the road just fine. Do I want one? Do I want a Honda CB750? Not really... well, maybe a sand cast. But I didn't really want one then. I would take a 1986 CB700SC Nighthawk S in pristine condition though. That is one bike that I do think is easily on par with what is currently comparable today.
__________________
Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

Mark - klx678
95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550

markk53 screwed with this post 02-05-2014 at 06:37 AM
markk53 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 06:39 AM   #81
Gripsteruser
Service Monkey
 
Joined: Jul 2013
Location: N. Colo
Oddometer: 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
Not really. ANY issue is an issue. Reliability, by the definition I am using, is any issue, whether it strands you or not. Any other definition is a matter of degrees, and therefore subjective and would make this conversation too muddy to pick one over the other.
Your definition is not how Reliability Engineering sees it. Issues vary in their effects and there is a method for accounting for that.

For instance - engine failure in a single engine airplane vs engine failure in a 4 engine airplane. The 4 engine is 4X as likely to have a failure but the consequences of the failure are likely to be much less.

There is a Reliability Engineering analysis activity called Failure Modes and Effects Criticality Analysis (FMECA) used to work out the issues and their consequences. Since it's time consuming it's costly. But it can help change design decisions if the reliability or maintainability goals aren't met. And of course it depends on some assumptions that may be proven wrong in actual service when theory encounters manufacturing defects and production tolerances (" BMW final drives are bulletproof" :-)

But to give a thumbrule of Reliability - The more stuff in the system, the less reliable the system. (You're gonna be doing more maintenance to keep it running 100%.)

Another - the more lines of code in the software, the higher the probability of a defect lurking in the software.

Another - jack with it long enough - you're gonna break it. :-)
Gripsteruser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 06:53 AM   #82
Albie
Kool Aid poisoner
 
Albie's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: NWA
Oddometer: 9,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
using your logic .. who said anything about finding the cheapest bike available?

come on now .. for most folks costs to keep a motorcycle running is an issue. so what's the costs for a final drive not under warranty for R1200 at the dealership? what about costs to fix ABS on same bike?
I doubt that. For most people in the US a motorcycle is a LUXURY. Very few people here own one as their sole means of dependent transportation. Since it's a luxury, I doubt many people that own them are sweating paying to keep them running or else they probably couldn't afford the thing in the first place and shouldn't have bought it.
__________________
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.

Another day, another foot injury!
Albie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 07:29 AM   #83
4PawsHacienda
Gnarly Adventurer
 
4PawsHacienda's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: Climax NC or Fancy Gap VA (milemarker 199 BRP)
Oddometer: 498
I think that sometimes I use the reliability factor as justification to buy something new that I think I want, other times as justification not to.

I do find myself paying attention to Jim VB's advice and suggestions, I appreciate his willingness to share - it's up to me to decide to follow or not.
4PawsHacienda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 07:35 AM   #84
Bloodweiser
honestly
 
Bloodweiser's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: way over yonder in the minor key
Oddometer: 2,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
The black box that burnt out. What at the local hardware store will fix that? Seems Harley has that stuff too.
Read carefully.
That conversation was about TOOLS.
Bloodweiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 07:49 AM   #85
randyo
Beastly Adventurer
 
randyo's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Northern NewEngland
Oddometer: 1,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albie View Post
I doubt that. For most people in the US a motorcycle is a LUXURY. Very few people here own one as their sole means of dependent transportation. Since it's a luxury, I doubt many people that own them are sweating paying to keep them running or else they probably couldn't afford the thing in the first place and shouldn't have bought it.
motorcycles are a luxury cause they are money pits, your always replacing something, even if its not an engine part, chains, sprockets and more tires, fork oil, seals

yes, fuel injection is more reliable than the carb that was on the bike 30 years ago, but so is the carb that would be built today, the modern carb is probably more reliable, it may not be as efficient, but efficiency and reliability are 2 different subjects, just one sensor among several has a glitch and if your lucky the FI goes into limp mode to get you home
__________________
RandyO
IBA # 9560
07 VeeStrom
99 SV650
82 XV920R
A man with a gun is a citizen
A man without a gun is a subject
randyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 08:29 AM   #86
Paebr332
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Location: Shippensburg, PA
Oddometer: 942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripsteruser View Post
But to give a thumbrule of Reliability - The more stuff in the system, the less reliable the system. (You're gonna be doing more maintenance to keep it running 100%.)
This is only true ceteris paribus. In other words, the rule of thumb only applies if you are adding more stuff that has a similar failure rate to the original stuff.

Replacing a mechanical component with lots of electronic components which each have 5-9's reliability will actually increase the overall reliability of the system in most cases. Electronics have a different reliability hazard function than do mechanical components. Mechanical components tend to suffer significant infant mortality failures followed by a period of random failures, and then experience an end-of-life/wearout phase with ever increasing failure rates (mechanical wear in mechanical systems is a fact of physics). This is often called the "bathtub curve." Electronic components usually follow a decreasing failure rate curve with most failures being infant mortality failures. Wear out is by and large not an issue with electronics.

Counting the individual pixels on your display screen and transistors on your chips means there are literally millions of individual components in the device you are using to read this post. Add in all the electronic components in the internet between your device and the ADV servers and you get an inkling of just how reliable electronic components are. Electronics component reliability is orders of magnitude higher than mechanical component reliability. If it were not so, you would not be able to read this post.

Paebr332 screwed with this post 02-05-2014 at 09:15 AM
Paebr332 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 08:39 AM   #87
woodnbow
Beastly Adventurer
 
woodnbow's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: Western Slope (By God!) of Colorado
Oddometer: 1,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
You can't possibly say that you will get 150K trouble free miles from a carb, bike after bike. You can say that about a FI system. No bike goes 50K miles with no issues at all with the carbs.
Except for Keihin CV's on every EVO I've ever run them on from Sportsters to Electra Glides. And for a performance minded biker, Mikuni HSR42's. set 'em and forget 'em. Use clean fuel and keep your filters clean. That's it.
__________________
Or as one of my buds who is a Ducati afficionado observed after riding it "That's the angriest damn motorcycle I've ever ridden."
woodnbow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 08:58 AM   #88
windmill
Beastly Adventurer
 
windmill's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: Kent, Washington State
Oddometer: 4,084
Some of us do use our bikes as our full time all weather transportation, some of us do need to be concerned with the expense of service and repairs, some of us keep our bikes many years.

For some of us, user maintainability trumps technical superiority.
__________________
"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".
windmill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 09:03 AM   #89
Albie
Kool Aid poisoner
 
Albie's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: NWA
Oddometer: 9,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyo View Post
motorcycles are a luxury cause they are money pits, your always replacing something, even if its not an engine part, chains, sprockets and more tires, fork oil, seals

yes, fuel injection is more reliable than the carb that was on the bike 30 years ago, but so is the carb that would be built today, the modern carb is probably more reliable, it may not be as efficient, but efficiency and reliability are 2 different subjects, just one sensor among several has a glitch and if your lucky the FI goes into limp mode to get you home
I want my refrigerator to be reliable, I want my furnace to be reliable, I want my motorcycles to be fun.
__________________
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.

Another day, another foot injury!
Albie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 09:05 AM   #90
Albie
Kool Aid poisoner
 
Albie's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: NWA
Oddometer: 9,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill View Post
Some of us do use our bikes as our full time all weather transportation, some of us do need to be concerned with the expense of service and repairs, some of us keep our bikes many years.

For some of us, user maintainability trumps technical superiority.
Here, I'll help you out:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/most
__________________
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.

Another day, another foot injury!
Albie is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 10:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014