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Old 02-04-2014, 05:48 PM   #226
hippiebrian
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Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
Where does this crap come from indeed.

There is nothing wrong with an adult starting out on a big twin (no matter what brand) Cruiser. They are easy to ride. In some ways easier than the smaller bikes. (for people that are just learning clutch discipline)

The key is simply to admit they do indeed NEED TO LEARN. So many never bother.
They are not simple to maneuver. The power of a big twin, believe it or not, can sneak up on someone without throttle control experience. They do not corner well. They are by no means beginner bikes.

If you must have a Harley to start with, it only makes sense to start with an 883 which is much more forgiving in the handling department as well as the throttle control department. Better yet, let's find out about the new 500'sw and 750's. But in no freaking way can you convince me that a big bulky Harley is a good bike to learn ot ride on. It makes absolutely zero sense.

Same can be said of a liter and even a 600 sport bike.
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Old 02-04-2014, 06:01 PM   #227
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They are not simple to maneuver. The power of a big twin, believe it or not, can sneak up on someone without throttle control experience. They do not corner well. They are by no means beginner bikes.
Maybe.

But there are thousands of beginners who have survived doing so, despite everything you point out. Kinda hard to argue against that, isn't it?

A timid rider who keeps enough fear in mind to hold their ego in check has a better chance of surviving the learning curve.

A 125cc bike can put a rider in front of a moving car, or, miss a turn if the rider let's it.

Not saying that it wouldn't be wiser to start small, but not all riders are motivated to learn, many are simply wanting to fit in with their buds.

Everyone must make their own choices in life. Your recommendation for the guy to buy more life insurance is about all you can do if they are beyond reason.
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Old 02-04-2014, 06:07 PM   #228
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Maybe.

But there are thousands of beginners who have survived doing so, despite everything you point out. Kinda hard to argue against that, isn't it?
Not at all, some of them survive, some don't. Most are relegated to forever paddling around from bar to bar instead of getting out and doing any of the multitudes of wonderful things real motorcyclists do.
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Old 02-04-2014, 06:25 PM   #229
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So should I buy a litre sport bike for my first bike ??

Marc
If you're making a point.... sorry completely lost on me. If its a serious question, NO.
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Old 02-04-2014, 07:01 PM   #230
joexr
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No.

Proficiency is skill, the bike is only the tool being employed.

A better tool can allow for a higher degree of tool-wielding by the proficient craftsman.

And, a poor craftsman will often blame his tools.
Some don't know what the tools are for.
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Old 02-04-2014, 07:57 PM   #231
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Not at all, some of them survive, some don't. Most are relegated to forever paddling around from bar to bar instead of getting out and doing any of the multitudes of wonderful things real motorcyclists do.
Doesn't change the fact that thousands have survived.

What any particular person considers "riding" is their business. It might not be your or my cup of tea, but it is theirs. May they go in peace, ... or pieces, whichever comes first.
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Old 02-04-2014, 07:59 PM   #232
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Doesn't change the fact that thousands have survived.
Doesn't change the fact that thousands have died.
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Old 02-04-2014, 08:08 PM   #233
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Doesn't change the fact that thousands have died.
Joe,

Here's the statement from above.

"But there are thousands of beginners who have survived doing so, despite everything you point out. Kinda hard to argue against that, isn't it?"

Your response is a non sequitur. It in no way changes the fact that thousands have survived after having begun on big bikes.

It can be done. I think neither you nor I would suggest anyone start that way, but some will.

If you are trying to make some point that thousands have died, I've missed it. Thousands have died from every facet of motorcycledom. This isn't news.
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Old 02-04-2014, 08:11 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
They are not simple to maneuver. The power of a big twin, believe it or not, can sneak up on someone without throttle control experience. They do not corner well. They are by no means beginner bikes.

If you must have a Harley to start with, it only makes sense to start with an 883 which is much more forgiving in the handling department as well as the throttle control department. Better yet, let's find out about the new 500'sw and 750's. But in no freaking way can you convince me that a big bulky Harley is a good bike to learn ot ride on. It makes absolutely zero sense.
In many ways a Big twin is easier to ride than an 883. For one they carry the weight lower. They may be heavier but they feel lighter. The bottom end torque of a big twin doesn't even need added throttle to start out. (an 883 needs a little)

For some riders an 883 is a good choice... For many others a full sized bike would be a better choice.

Tell me how this guy would benefit from being on an 883
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Old 02-04-2014, 08:56 PM   #235
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He'd definitely benefit from being on a diet. That poor bike. It probably can't hit 50.
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Old 02-04-2014, 10:14 PM   #236
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It can be done. I think neither you nor I would suggest anyone start that way, but some will.
Then aren't we all in agreement that its not a good idea which was the original point? Even professional racers are expected to learn their craft in the smaller capacity classes before moving up to mid size, then 1+ litre bikes.

In Australia we have a 2 tier licence system. But older returning riders who got their full licence in their teens and kept it, but may not have ridden for 30 years are not affected by this system. They go out and select a bike based upon their memory of how good they thought they were 30 years ago, not how good they are actual now. I'm sure we've all seen the slogan "the older I get, the better I was".

It is a real and serious problem showing up in the road stats here, its not just hypothetical. There has been a spike in bike related tragedies in recent years, and the major contributor is not young rev-heads but returning older riders. When I saw the make of bike in the OP's first post, its one of the first things I though could be a possibility. We were told nothing about the age or history of the rider.

JohnCW screwed with this post 02-05-2014 at 01:54 AM
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Old 02-04-2014, 11:31 PM   #237
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Would there be a difference in outcome trying to learning to ride a horse on a large race horse, or a smaller more placid one? Both just the "tools being employed"?

I ride occasionally with an over 40's club which gets a lot of returning riders as new members. 99% of them have bought one of two bikes to get back into riding, a big heavy BMW tourer, or a large HD.

It's my observation this choice of bike holds them back from developing appropriate skills. They find them a handful to manage, and so confidence is reduced. Without confidence their skills do not seem to progress. They don't seem to stick around long and probably the bike gets sold. They'd have been far better of buying a smaller more easily manageable bike to start with, on which they could gain confidence and skills.

It'd be much the same deal if someone asked me should they bike a 1+ liter Super Sport as their first bike.

So as a generalization, I believe the choice of bike can have a significant bearing on the confidence, development progress, and overall proficiency of the rider.
You keep using a kart before the horse argument. Learning to ride, or coming back to riding after a long break pretty much means you won't be a proficient rider. Then again there's no set formula. I took a 10 year break from bikes and my first bike back was a R1 and after a week I was perfectly comfortable with it. but even since then I still continue to learn things about riding. Anybody that thinks they've got nothing to learn is honestly an idiot. Now if you are a proficient rider, then you won't have those issues. I know I have just as much confidence throwing a leg over my pig heavy Strom, or my 100+ HP Gixxer 600, or my uber light, 50 HP 450 EXC.

There are plenty of riders that have been riding for decades that aren't really very good at riding, I see them all the time. Experience and proficiency are by no means synonymous.

Pretty much the same can be said of car drivers. I find very few people with what I consider even average skills when it comes to driving.

Of course these observations are based on US drivers/riders. We have probably the worst trained drivers/riders outside of third world countries. You can get a license off the back of a cereal box here.
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Old 02-04-2014, 11:38 PM   #238
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Of course these observations are based on US drivers/riders. We have probably the worst trained drivers/riders outside of third world countries. You can get a license off the back of a cereal box here.
A lot of third world drivers/riders are pretty damned good. A lot more of them percentage wise than here.
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:21 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
Jazz hands to the end!
both riders here need to learn cornering. First rider has apexed way too early, probably because he stuffed up the first corner by apexing too early and running wide, looks like he dug the pannier into the dirt, the second rider is perfectly placed to go the same way. First rider should have been closer to the centreline which he would have been had he started. the previous corner closer to the edge of the road. Bad positioning I think.
All styles of bikes behave differently so there can be no hard and fast rules other than countersteer to initiate the turn, after that it depends on the type of bike the weight of the rider, the speed, the tyres, the suspension, the handlebar position, lots of variables. I've ridden hundreds of different bikes and they all require fine tuning of techniques. One thing I would not do and that is weight the inside peg, you don't want to run out of ground clearance, countersteering and body positioning together with weighting the outside peg allows me to fine tune the input required.
So I would say
1 Corner positioning, in wide out tight
2 Slow in fast out
3 Countersteering
4 Body positioning
5 Steady throttle to the apex
6 Power on when you can see the exit be it before the apex or after
7 use the bars to adjust the lean and to straighten the bike back up
8 Look through the corner to the spot where you want the bike to go, sometimes a long way ahead
9 Use the rear brake to settle the bike in the corner
10 Be smooth
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Old 02-05-2014, 07:07 AM   #240
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Then aren't we all in agreement that its not a good idea which was the original point? Even professional racers are expected to learn their craft in the smaller capacity classes before moving up to mid size, then 1+ litre bikes.
Whether or not it is a good idea isn't what my statement is about. Yes, as a former MSF instructor, I think it is a good idea to start on a small, easy to ride bike that you can drop in the parking lot and not worry about it.

However, I live in the real world and know that some people will choose otherwise. I'm just saying that some of those some people, likely most of those some people, will do it successfully. They may not have rider improvement as their goal. They probably think riding a bike is like driving a car. Nevertheless, they can and do learn, or re-enter, motorcycling successfully on large bikes.

You seem to think that I am arguing in favor of this. I'm not. All I am saying is that anyone who states that a person can't learn to ride on a big bike is wrong, based on the fact that it IS done all the time.

Granted, the chances of learning without damage to bike or rider probably goes way up, but this in no way makes it impossible, only more difficult for the learning rider.

Some people are simply gluttons for punishment and will place ego before practicality.

Some people think it is more important to fit into their peer group than to become proficient.

Everyone has a right to choose their path in life. Who an I to stand in their way?
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