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Old 02-03-2014, 04:19 AM   #16
JohnCW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanantos View Post
I'm trying to find a safe, comfortable medium between MSF's "Never Touch The Brakes In A Corner Or God Will Kill Puppies!" and Keith's "Never Touch The Rear Brake Ever, Use The Engine!"

MSF's approach is the right one for n00b's and Keith's is probably right for track racers. I'm neither. I'm just a guy who likes to ride hard as safely as possible.
Never touch the brakes in a corner may be an ok ideal in a world comprising straights and hard right angle corners. But what about a steep fast snaking downhill twistie with hardly a straight bit of road in it. The only way to not have the brakes on going into a corner under these conditions would be to ride quite slowly.

I must admit I haven't given any conscious though to the back brake which I'm not heavy on at anytime. I'm assuming not touching the back brake is because of the combined effect of weight transfer forward and engine braking which could cause the back to loose traction. But I've never experienced this problem myself.
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Old 02-03-2014, 06:34 AM   #17
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i have watched some private videos on this that I wish I could share, they do a great job of showing the difference between using engine braking and not.

What is most important is getting the rate of decelleration right. Using downshifts to do so requires a lot of practice and work, but it keeps the engine exactly where you want it in the powerband. The engine braking is not for braking so much as crashaft speed control. Using this as part of your braking strategy is a big plus on the track. The owner of said videos rides about 20mph faster than his group, largely becau he does not have to bang three shifts in a row every corner, instead he spaces them out a bit and this dramatically smooths out his line and his decelleration profile, along with keeping the entire bike spun up. it's multi-tasking to the extreme.

I can't do it wll yet, but I practice it. It's another tool in the box.
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:32 AM   #18
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I think I can splain this.

The biggest problem I read here is that Keith is talking about track riding and we're talking about road. (duh, right). The big difference here is that Keith assumes you know the track after having been around it 20 times, and therefore know what gear you should be down shifting into in order to set yourself up for the exit. Out on the road, especially unfamiliar roads, one can't really know which gear would be right for the exit drive. Best slow it down a notch.
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Old 02-03-2014, 06:50 PM   #19
JohnCW
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Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
What is most important is getting the rate of decelleration right. Using downshifts to do so requires a lot of practice and work, but it keeps the engine exactly where you want it in the powerband.

The owner of said videos rides about 20mph faster than his group, largely because he does not have to bang three shifts in a row every corner, instead he spaces them out a bit and this dramatically smooths out his line and his decelleration profile, along with keeping the entire bike spun up. it's multi-tasking to the extreme.
Wasn't that long ago that a truck, car, or bike (at least the ones I owned or drove) had pretty ineffective brakes, and wouldn't stop effectively on the brakes alone. The brakes were so bad, that downshifting progressively back through a manual gearbox for braking purposes was pretty much the 'correct' way to drive/ride. You started practicing it the day you got your licence. Changing down the gears was about the only way to pull a single disc rear drum CB750 up. Imagine whatever you ride now with about 1/4 of the brakes, that's about what they had I guess.

So for me your comment was quite interesting as I hadn't given any thought that what to a certain generation may be a basic driving/riding technique may have become a bit lost to a generation only accustomed to cars with modern automatic gearboxes and powerful brakes.

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Old 02-04-2014, 03:41 PM   #20
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Engine braking is good and all, but generally I would rather used all the brakes I got, locked up the rear, slid around and lowsided before running into something. Not much to run into on the track.
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Old 02-05-2014, 08:10 PM   #21
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:FLASH: Rain forcast for tomarrow........
Finally, It's the off season!
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Old 02-05-2014, 08:21 PM   #22
JohnCW
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:FLASH: Rain forcast for tomarrow........
Finally, It's the off season!
Can someone please explain to me motorcycle on/off seasons.....
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:51 AM   #23
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I believe that joke was already used in post number 3 by Randyo.

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Old 02-06-2014, 06:50 AM   #24
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Here are some thoughts from another.

Braking by Nick Ienatsch

"If you have to stop in a corner, one of two things will happen. One, you will stand the bike up and ride it off the shoulder and into whatever is over there. Or two, you will lay the bike down and slide off the shoulder of the road. Braking is done before, or after a corner. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought "I'm going to turn this corner" into your mind."

Hiya FZ1 lovers.
I’ve stewed for two days about the above quote taken from another FZ1OA thread...and finally decided to launch this thread. In past years I would have just rolled my eyes and muttered, “Whatever”…but not anymore. I want to tell you that there are measureable, explainable, repeatable, do-able reasons that make great riders great. And brake usage is at the very tippity-top of these reasons. It’ll save your life, it’ll make you a champion. It will save and grow our sport.
I’ll ask this one favor: Would you open your mind to what I’m about to write, then go out and mess around with it?
To begin: Realize that great motorcycle riding is more subtle in its inputs than most of us imagine. I bet you are moving your hand too quickly with initial throttle and brakes. Moving your right foot too quickly with initial rear brake. The difference between a lap record and a highside is minute, almost-immeasureable differences in throttle and lean angle. The difference between hitting the Camaro in your lane and missing it by a foot is the little things a rider can do with speed control at lean angle. Brakes at lean angle. Brakes in a corner.
Yes, a rider can brake in a corner. Yes. For sure. Guaranteed. I promise. Happens all the time. I do it on every ride, track or street. Yes, a rider can stop in a corner. In fact, any student who rides with the Yamaha Champions Riding School will tell you it’s possible. Complete stop, mid-corner…no drama. Newbies and experts alike.
There are some interesting processes to this sport, mostly revolving around racing. But as I thought about this thread, putting numbers on each thought made more sense because explaining these concepts relies on busting some myths and refining your inputs. Some things must be ingrained…like #1 below.

1)You never, ever, never stab at the brakes. Understand a tire’s grip this way: Front grip is divided between lean angle points and brake points, rear grip is lean angle points and acceleration points, lean angle points and brake points. Realize that the tire will take a great load, but it won’t take a sudden load…and so you practice this smooth loading at every moment in/on every vehicle. If you stab the brakes (um...or throttle...) in your pickup, you berate yourself because you know that the stab, at lean angle on your motorcycle (and bicycle, btw), will be a crash.

2)Let’s examine tire grip. If you’re leaned over at 95% (95 points in my book Sport Riding Techniques and fastersafer.com) of the tires’ available grip, you still have 5% of that grip available for braking (or accelerating). But maybe you only have 3%!!! You find out because you always add braking “points” in a smooth, linear manner. As the front tire reaches its limit, it will squirm and warn you…if that limit is reached in a linear manner.
It’s the grabbing of 30 points that hurts anyone leaned over more than 70 points. If you ride *FasterLongerDeeperHarder**FasterLongerDeeperHarde r**FasterLongerDeeperHarder**FasterLongerDeeperHar der*ly with no lean angle, you will begin to believe that aggressiveness and grabbing the front brake lever is okay…and it is…until you carry more lean angle (or it’s raining, or you’re on a dirt road or your tire’s cold…pick your excuse). Do you have a new rider in your life? Get them thinking of never, ever, never grabbing the brakes. Throttle too…

3)If you STAB the front brake at lean angle, one of two things will happen. If the grip is good, the fork will collapse and the bike will stand up and run wide. If the grip is not-so-good, the front tire will lock and slide. The italicized advice at the beginning was written by a rider who aggressively goes after the front brake lever. His bike always stands up or lowsides. He’s inputting brake force too aggressively, too quickly...he isn't smoothly loading the fork springs or loading the tire. He may not believe this, but the tire will handle the load he wants, but the load must be fed-in more smoothly…and his experience leads to written advice that will hurt/kill other riders. “Never touch the brakes at lean angle?” Wrong. “Never grab the brakes at lean angle?” Right!
But what about the racers on TV who lose the front in the braking zone? Pay attention to when they lose grip. If it’s immediately, it’s because they stabbed the brake at lean angle. If it’s late in the braking zone, it’s because they finally exceeded 100 points of grip deep in the braking zone…if you’re adding lean angle, you’ve got to be “trailing off” the brakes as the tire nears its limit.

4) Radius equals MPH. Realize that speed affects the bike’s radius at a given lean angle. If the corner is tighter than expected, continue to bring your speed down. What’s the best way to bring your speed down? Roll off the throttle and hope you *FasterLongerDeeperHarder**FasterLongerDeeperHarde r**FasterLongerDeeperHarder**FasterLongerDeeperHar der* down? Or roll off the throttle and squeeze on a little brake? Please don’t answer off the top of your head…answer after you’ve experimented in the real world.
Do this: Ride in a circle in a parking lot at a given lean angle. That’s your radius. Run a circle or two and then *FasterLongerDeeperHarder**FasterLongerDeeperHarde r**FasterLongerDeeperHarder**FasterLongerDeeperHar der*ly sneak on more throttle at the same lean angle and watch what your radius does. Now ride in the circle again, and roll off the throttle…at the same lean angle. You are learning Radius equals MPH. You are learning what throttle and off-throttle does to your radius through steering geometry changes and speed changes. You are learning something on your own, rather than asking for advice on subjects that affect your health and life. (You will also learn why I get so upset when new riders are told to push on the inside bar and pick up the throttle if they get in the corner too fast. Exactly the opposite of what the best riders do. But don’t believe me…try it.)
Let me rant for a moment: Almost every bit of riding advice works when the pace is low and the grip is high. It’s when the corner tightens or the sleet falls or the lap record is within reach…then everything counts.
“Get all your braking done before the turn,” is good riding advice. But what if you don’t? What if the corner goes the other way and is tighter and there’s gravel? It’s then that you don’t need advice, you need riding technique. Theory goes out the window and if you don’t perform the exact action, you will be lying in the dirt, or worse. Know that these techniques are not only understandable, but do-able by you. Yes you! I’m motivated to motivate you due to what I’ve seen working at Freddie’s school and now the Champ school…
I’m telling you this: If you can smoothly, gently pick-up your front brake lever and load the tire, you can brake at any lean angle on and FZ1. Why? Because our footpegs drag before our tires lose grip when things are warm and dry. It might be only 3 points, but missing the bus bumper by a foot is still missing the bumper! If it’s raining, you simply take these same actions and reduce them…you can still mix lean angle and brake pressure, but with considerably less of each. Rainy and cold? Lower still, but still combine-able.

5)So you’re into a right-hand corner and you must stop your bike for whatever reason. You close the throttle and sneak on the brakes lightly, balancing lean angle points against brake points. As you *FasterLongerDeeperHarder**FasterLongerDeeperHarde r**FasterLongerDeeperHarder**FasterLongerDeeperHar der* down, your radius continues to tighten. You don’t want to run off the inside of the corner, so you take away lean angle. What can you do with the brakes when you take away lean angle? Yes! Squeeze more. Stay with it and you will stop your bike mid-corner completely upright. No drama. But don’t just believe me…go prove it to yourself.

6)Let’s examine the final sentence in the italicized quote. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought "I'm going to turn this corner" into your mind.
No, that’s not the best thing. It’s not the worst thing and I’m all for positive thinking, but we all need to see the difference between riding advice and riding techniques. This advice works until you enter a corner truly beyond your mental, physical or mechanical limits. I would change this to: The best thing to do before taking a corner is to scan with your eyes, use your brakes until you’re happy with your speed and direction, sneak open your throttle to maintain your chosen speed and radius, don’t accelerate until you can see your exit and can take away lean angle.
7)Do you think I’m being over-dramatic by claiming this will save our sport? Are we crashing because we’re going too *FasterLongerDeeperHarder**FasterLongerDeeperHarde r**FasterLongerDeeperHarder**FasterLongerDeeperHar der*ly in the corners or too fast? Yes, too fast. What component reduces speed? Brakes. What component calms your brain? Brakes. What component, when massaged skillfully, helps the bike turn? Brakes. If riders are being told that they can’t use the brakes at lean angle, you begin to see the reason for my drama level. When I have a new rider in my life, my third priority is to have them, “Turn into the corner with the brake-light on.”

I’ve said it before: This is the only bike forum I’m a member of. I like it, I like the peeps, I like the info, I love the bike. Could we begin to change the information we pass along regarding brakes and lean angle? Could we control our sport by actually controlling our motorcycles? If we don’t control our sport, someone else will try. Closed throttle, no brakes is “out of the controls”. Get out there and master the brakes.
Thanks, I feel better.

Nick Ienatsch
Yamaha Champions Riding School
Fastersafer.com
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:51 AM   #25
outlaws justice
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In Total Control We teach riders to use both brakes, and we do drills with just front, and just rear, then both so that riders get to actually see and feel the difference.
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:46 PM   #26
Sp4rks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Can someone please explain to me motorcycle on/off seasons.....
I'm pretty sure off season is when the weather messes up the trail so bad that you crash often, ending "off" the bike.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:32 PM   #27
scottzilla
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You guys do realize trail braking has nothing to do with using the rear brake, right?
I think this is an internet thing. Before the internet everyone seemed to understand trail braking is the trailing off the front brake as you get deeper in to a corner or, at the minimum, braking into the corner, NOT modulating the rear brake.
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Old 02-06-2014, 08:58 PM   #28
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I use front trail braking on every corner > 15 mph. Never use engine braking except to keep brakes from heating up on a long downgrade

Why, you might ask?

I'm used to it from racing FWD cars--only way you can get them to turn. But not relevant here...

Ive had the rear end slip a bit if I've not matched revs well with engine braking.

On my bikes, I go into a corner with front wheel trail braking and maintenance throttle (a melange of ienstach, code, spencer).

That way I have perfect feel of what's going on with throttle and brake "in the moment"

If I see a deer I can gently increase braking without grabbing a handful and getting in trouble. If I see lots of road width past the apex, I can smoothly let off the brake and roll on as much throttle as I feel good about.

It's not about racing (for me--to old for that..). It's about fun and margin of safety.

If I go into a corner at a speed that takes .5 g, but I know I've got another .3 g to play with (it's a KLR after all) then I can do some serious maneuvering to stay out of trouble.

Not even suggesting I'm doing this perfectly, or that this is the "best and only way"; just trying to learn from every corner

YMMV

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Old 02-06-2014, 10:48 PM   #29
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Sorry duplicate post. Tried to edit and couldn't figure out how to cancel ::-( [QWhisperUOTE=wep300;23410689]I use front trail braking on every corner > 15 mph. Never use engine braking except to keep brakes from heating up on a long downgrade

Why, you might ask?

I'm used to it from racing FWD cars--only way you can get them to turn. But not relevant here...

Ive had the rear end slip a bit if I've not matched revs well with engine braking.

On my bikes, I go into a corner with front wheel trail braking and maintenance throttle (a melange of ienstach, code, spencer).

That way I have perfect feel of what's going on with throttle and brake "in the moment"

If I see a deer I can gently increase braking without grabbing a handful and getting in trouble. If I see lots of road width past the apex, I can smoothly let off the brake and roll on as much throttle as I feel good about.

It's not about racing (for me--to old for that..). It's about fun and margin of safety.

If I go into a corner at a speed that takes .5 g, but I know I've got another .3 g to play with (it's a KLR after all) then I can do some serious maneuvering or scrubbing off speed to stay upright & out of trouble.

Not even suggesting I'm doing this perfectly, or that this is the "best and only way"; just trying to learn from every corner

YMMV[/QUOTE] ;
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Old 02-06-2014, 11:38 PM   #30
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Good stuff, I was always conditioned with a whip to never brake in a turn.
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