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Old 02-05-2014, 07:15 AM   #241
MotoTex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RowBust View Post
both riders here need to learn cornering.
As an FYI, that photo is an oldie from the Killboy thread. It can be further dissected there if needed.
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Old 02-05-2014, 07:24 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by RowBust View Post
both riders here need to learn cornering. First rider has apexed way too early, probably because he stuffed up the first corner by apexing too early and running wide, looks like he dug the pannier into the dirt, the second rider is perfectly placed to go the same way. First rider should have been closer to the centreline which he would have been had he started. the previous corner closer to the edge of the road. Bad positioning I think.
All styles of bikes behave differently so there can be no hard and fast rules other than countersteer to initiate the turn, after that it depends on the type of bike the weight of the rider, the speed, the tyres, the suspension, the handlebar position, lots of variables. I've ridden hundreds of different bikes and they all require fine tuning of techniques. One thing I would not do and that is weight the inside peg, you don't want to run out of ground clearance, countersteering and body positioning together with weighting the outside peg allows me to fine tune the input required.
So I would say
1 Corner positioning, in wide out tight
2 Slow in fast out
3 Countersteering
4 Body positioning
5 Steady throttle to the apex
6 Power on when you can see the exit be it before the apex or after
7 use the bars to adjust the lean and to straighten the bike back up
8 Look through the corner to the spot where you want the bike to go, sometimes a long way ahead
9 Use the rear brake to settle the bike in the corner
10 Be smooth
Or you could just ride.
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Old 02-05-2014, 04:13 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
The key is simply to admit they do indeed NEED TO LEARN. So many never bother.
They do indeed. But mostly they learn to toddle around on the bike they buy, and that's good enough; and if the bike they buy is "easy to ride", they don't learn much. If they buy into a bike that has a culture that says "It's OK to paddle walk / tip over / lay it down", they never learn otherwise.
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Old 02-05-2014, 07:55 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
I think you should read the thread. Don't think there was a single post stating the above.
I tried, it hurts.


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Old 02-06-2014, 06:10 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
This right here. I am a big fan of the European style tiered licensing just because of that reason.

Case in point. At my last job, this dude told me he was buying his first bike. "Cool" I said, "What are you thinking about?"

"Trying to figure out what Harley I want."

"Does it have to be a Harley?"

"I won't buy anything else. Ever."

"Okay, whatever, get an 883 to start."

"Can't. That's a girl's bike."

"Where the hell did you learn that?"

Blank stare.

"Tell you what, you tell whoever said it was a girl's bike that I'll get on one and race him up Palomar Mountain, just so I can tell his friends he got beat by a girl's bike."

"Well, I need a big twin."

"No, you don't. It's too big and bulky to learn on."

"No it isn't. I'm getting one, probably a Soft Tail."

"Good luck. Buy more life insurance."

Where did this crap come from?
If you get a bike with enough torque, you never really have to learn to ride it. Just steer a little, stop, put it on the stand, take it off the stand.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:05 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Kommando View Post
Maybe on a clean track, with sticky sportbike rubber. On a public road, riding on tires that aren't warm sportbike rubber, sometimes the tires WON'T hold, and one may have to be better/luckier than their tires in those conditions.
This reply was to another poster that said when in doubt, make the bike lean, because it most likely will do it! Sure it takes trust, trust in the bike, trust in the traction, trust in your own riding abilities, trust in having the guts/balls,cojones to get it done.

But the quote above, makes it sound like the track is the only place this works, or that the tires won't hold. I say it is FAR more lilely the tires WILL hold and the bike WILL make the turn. But, SO many riders never approach what the bike can do, or has to do, and in so doing give it up to whatever results, that being "the bike wouldn't make the turn." I say it is more likely the bike will make the turn, so don't give it up. Why ride on the "sometimes" attitude when the bike/tires will perform? Go for it when you have to.
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Andyvh1959 screwed with this post 02-17-2014 at 10:53 PM
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:49 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
Where does this crap come from indeed.

There is nothing wrong with an adult starting out on a big twin (no matter what brand) Cruiser. They are easy to ride. In some ways easier than the smaller bikes. (for people that are just learning clutch discipline)

The key is simply to admit they do indeed NEED TO LEARN. So many never bother.


My Street-bob was not easy to ride at ALL compared to my other bikes, It was a pig at slow speeds, I mean sure once you're above 20 It's all relative, but around town or any kind of low speed maneuvers? Hell no.. And as much as we all like to make jokes about how "Slow" Harley's are, The Torque will sneak up on you quick if you're not careful, Then again I was never 100% At ease with that bike..
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:49 PM   #248
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Tip it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post
This reply was to another poster that said when in doubt, make the bike lean, because it most likely will do it! Sure it takes trust, trust in the bike, trust in the traction, trust in your own riding abilities, trust in having the guts/balls,cojones to get it done.

But the quote above, makes it sound like the track is the only place this works, or that the tires won't hold. I say it is FAR more lilely the tires WILL hold and the bike WILL make the turn. But, SO many riders never approach what the bike can do, or has to do, and is so doing give it up to whatever results, that being "the bike wouldn't make the turn." I say it is likely the bike will make, so don't give it up. Why ride on the "sometimes" attitude when the bike/tires will perform? Go for it when you have to.
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Old 02-17-2014, 05:12 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post
This reply was to another poster that said when in doubt, make the bike lean, because it most likely will do it! Sure it takes trust, trust in the bike, trust in the traction, trust in your own riding abilities, trust in having the guts/balls,cojones to get it done.

But the quote above, makes it sound like the track is the only place this works, or that the tires won't hold.
Perhaps, especially in the context quoted, but how something "sounds" or "seems" is often very different from reality. You may interpret something completely differently because of your own pre-existing biases. That's your choice. Which statement is factually correct though? The generalization or my mentioning of exception?

Quote:
I say it is FAR more likely the tires WILL hold and the bike WILL make the turn.
Again, that can depend on the circumstances. Given certain circumstances, it could be far more likely that the tires don't even have enough traction to maintain a straight line of travel on a slightly-crowned road. Given other circumstances, it COULD be far more likely that the tires WILL hold and the bike WILL make the turn.

Quote:
But, SO many riders never approach what the bike can do, or has to do, and is so doing give it up to whatever results, that being "the bike wouldn't make the turn." I say it is likely the bike will make, so don't give it up. Why ride on the "sometimes" attitude when the bike/tires will perform? Go for it when you have to.
For the most part, and in the most common riding conditions on public roads in this country, I agree, but when I see people generalizing, I often correct them. Why generalize if it is usually incorrect to do so and there is a much better way to state something? There is often at least one exception to most generalizations, and a few of us discussed this the last round. General rule of thumb: Try not to make generalizations if you don't want somebody picking them apart.

Here's an example of a blatant generalization I recently noticed...I just took a CCW permit class, and the instructor flat out told us that there is no legal open-carry in FL for private citizens in public. I disagreed. There ARE exceptions, so her wording was incorrect and misleading. Many LEOs in FL are even usually oblivious to one major instance that a private citizen can legally open-carry in FL, which is somewhat shocking and disturbing, if you ask me. People legally open-carry in large numbers every year in this state...participating in licensed hunting and fishing. Are they out there shooting deer, pigs, turkeys, pythons, fish, cottonmouths, and whatever else that's legal with just their "PEW! PEW!" fingers? Do the LEOs in most states that allow hunting on public land freak out whenever they see somebody open-carrying?

Generalizations, IMO, are usually WAY more misleading than presenting info while STILL allowing for exceptions. Try allowing for exceptions in your statements, instead of generalizing. It can take some practice, but you'll probably find yourself making fewer false/incorrect statements.
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Old 02-17-2014, 05:20 PM   #250
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here is what I say. By the time you realize you are too hot for a corner, the outcome is already determined. All you can do is make it worse. You can not always make it better. So no fear, lean the bike, hang off to the inside if you can, at least lean to the inside. If you do not make it, you were never going to make it. If you do, it is because you did not make it worse.

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Old 02-17-2014, 05:54 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
here is what I say. By the time you realize you are too hot for a corner, the outcome is already determined. All you can do is make it worse. You can not always make it better. So no fear, lean the bike, hang off to the inside if you can, at least lean to the inside. If you do not make it, you were never going to make it. If you do, it is because you did not make it worse.

Rod
This is not true at all. Quite often a generous dose of trail braking going into a turn will help, as will hanging off and leaning the shit out of the bike.

Any bike will do amazing things if you give it a chance.

If you have never experimented with trail braking, hanging off and really leaning into it, yeah, you're probably fooked.
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Old 02-17-2014, 05:57 PM   #252
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Thumb

Quote:
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
here is what i say. By the time you realize you are too hot for a corner, the outcome is already determined. All you can do is make it worse. You can not always make it better. So no fear, lean the bike, hang off to the inside if you can, at least lean to the inside. If you do not make it, you were never going to make it. If you do, it is because you did not make it worse.

Rod
+1
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Old 02-17-2014, 11:00 PM   #253
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I agree with the recent comments made. The emphasis I was making, is that most riders will "generalize" their choices or actons only based on their past experience. Their lake of training, lack of ability, lack of willingness to challenge the event, or simply lock up due to panic, and not make the bike do what it very likely can do.

Certainly, variables in traction, tires, loading are all major contributors to succesfully making the bike turn. But over all else, the rider in a very high percentage of cornering events IS the limiting factor. And in most cases the rider choses, purposely or inadvertently, to not make the bike do what it can do.
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Old 02-17-2014, 11:43 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
By the time you realize you are too hot for a corner, the outcome is already determined. All you can do is make it worse. You can not always make it better. So no fear, lean the bike, hang off to the inside if you can, at least lean to the inside. If you do not make it, you were never going to make it. If you do, it is because you did not make it worse.
You know I was gonna disagree, but then I thought about is some more, and now I agree. Why??

Think about it a bit deeper than just one corner ..... "By the time you realize you are too hot for a corner, the outcome is already determined. All you can do is make it worse". A positive outcome won't be determined by anything you do differently for this corner, because its just a tad late to be thinking for the first time now what did they say to do in the video? A positive outcome will actually come from riding around the corner just the normal well practiced way you approach every corner of that type at speed (and all the various techniques this involves).

That 'normal' way will have been determined by the commitment you've made to developing your riding skills, and practicing these skills. That's why I strongly disagree with folk who believe advanced riding skills like significant weight shifting only belong on the track. It might get you a gold plated piece of plastic mounted on a piece of wood at a club track meet, but it may actually save your life on the road.

So yes I agree "the outcome is already determined" as your approaching the corner....... by the amount of practice and commitment you've previously applied.
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:24 AM   #255
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I can't believe this is a topic of conversation

counter steer vs weight shift ... christ. The physics of how a two wheeled vehicle turns are well understood whether the bag of meat piloting it understands it or not. Whether you wiggle yer fat ass from one side to the other (and induce a counter steer that you're not aware of) or whether you're yanking our pushing on your bars the net dynamics of the vehicle are the same.

The guys who argue against "active counter steering" are also the same ones who stomp the rear brake leaving a perfectly straight skid mark into the stump that they target fixated on.
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