ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > Racing
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-23-2014, 08:04 PM   #1846
skwidd
where does this lead?
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Pissing in your Kampfire
Oddometer: 15,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnee Bill View Post
What we now call the 250 class is what you used to call the 125 class. Then we started calling it the Lites class. Never was either the prominent or the premier class.

When they killed the 500cc class the 250 two stroke class became what Ralph would call the premier class but when 4 strokes came along that 250 designation had to change. The old 250 class is now the 450 class. The current 250 class designation is the same (or similar) as was used for the 250 two stroke.



.
The 500's were never the premier class in modern times, after the early to mid 80's, because not all manufacturers participated and emphasis was on 250's where they all had product to sell.

When the world stage started to go away from the man's class of bike, the 250's became what was the premier class until 10 or so years ago.
__________________
'02 BN125 Eliminator, oversize 150 rear tire, 1 down on the front sprocket, Amsoil full synthetic race oil, dual gremlin bells
skwidd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2014, 08:10 PM   #1847
skwidd
where does this lead?
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Pissing in your Kampfire
Oddometer: 15,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnee Bill View Post

The 250 class morphed into the 450 class because California effectively outlawed 2 strokes and the only way a 4 stroke could get close to that power for years was to give them almost twice the displacement. Same thing with 125s.



.


The world marketplace in developed countries is to blame for the demise of the 2-stroke, not California.

Stop being pissy because you have to wait 6 months to see new movie releases on the side of a barn in your Ramcharger with a shitty speaker hanging in your window.
__________________
'02 BN125 Eliminator, oversize 150 rear tire, 1 down on the front sprocket, Amsoil full synthetic race oil, dual gremlin bells
skwidd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2014, 08:23 PM   #1848
Navin
Unwounding
 
Navin's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Oddometer: 6,388
Bah, the "old" 250 class was the fast class, where everybody was. Yamaha and Suzuki chose to drop out back then, 250 was where it was going. Guess what, the same thing has happened again, the new 250 class (overall)l is faster than the 450 class, except now all the factories have 450s to sell and I guess nobody is watching the lap times.

Emig said that on the 250 2t, they wouldn't have been jumping the double over the straight last night. BS. The 250 4t guys were doing it.

The 125s wouldn't have been doing it, well, maybe the top guys like Stewart, RC or Pastrana might have, but the racing would be much different for sure.

I'd rather watch that than them building tracks to try and suit the 450s only to have 250s going faster anyway.
Navin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2014, 08:46 PM   #1849
Shawnee Bill
Beastly Adventurer
 
Shawnee Bill's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Oddometer: 1,750
Quote:
Originally Posted by nachtflug View Post
yes I've got all that. now try to pay attention.

Nate made the statement (since removed) that the step up from the 250's to the 450's is a big one.

to which while I agree that to be true they have also in effect diminished the brightness of the star that used to be the 250 class that ran in the 70's/80'/90's.

back in the 70's since Honda and Kawasaki either didn't have an open class bike (Honda) or dropped it for a few years (KX450/400) the 250 class with Gary Jones, Tony D, Hannah, Howerton, all capturing consecutive titles was kind of the premier class, and it carried into SX, proven by the fact that the only years there was a 500 SX class was 74/75, while the 250 SX class ran from 74 to 2004, so again, for Nate to say that the step from the 250's to the 450's is a big step, it's only FAIR TO POINT OUT THAT THE 250 CLASS USED TO BE THE PREMIER CLASS ALL THING CONSIDERED.
yes I've got all that. now try to pay attention.

What is today LABELED the 250 class is in no way the class that was LABELED the 250 class before the advent of the 4 stroke.

Just because it has the same name does NOT make it the same class.


.

.
Shawnee Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2014, 08:55 PM   #1850
Navin
Unwounding
 
Navin's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Oddometer: 6,388
[QUOTE=Shawnee Bill;23540772]yes I've got all that. now try to pay attention.

What is today LABELED the 250 class is in no way the class that was LABELED the 250 class before the advent of the 4 stroke.

Just because it has the same name does NOT make it the same class.


I get what you are claiming but really the HP levels are almost the same. The emphasis is on 450 now but in reality, the 450 riders could be on 250f and there would be little, if any difference in the racing.

Tedesco switched to the 350 a few weeks ago, you couldn't tell when he was passing or dicing guys on 450s that it was a 350.
Navin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2014, 09:00 PM   #1851
skwidd
where does this lead?
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Pissing in your Kampfire
Oddometer: 15,438
[QUOTE=Navin;23540813]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnee Bill View Post
yes I've got all that. now try to pay attention.

What is today LABELED the 250 class is in no way the class that was LABELED the 250 class before the advent of the 4 stroke.

Just because it has the same name does NOT make it the same class.


I get what you are claiming but really the HP levels are almost the same. The emphasis is on 450 now but in reality, the 450 riders could be on 250f and there would be little, if any difference in the racing.

Tedesco switched to the 350 a few weeks ago, you couldn't tell when he was passing or dicing guys on 450s that it was a 350.
Then why don't RD and Kenny ride it?
__________________
'02 BN125 Eliminator, oversize 150 rear tire, 1 down on the front sprocket, Amsoil full synthetic race oil, dual gremlin bells
skwidd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2014, 09:14 PM   #1852
Navin
Unwounding
 
Navin's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Oddometer: 6,388
[QUOTE=skwidd;23540836]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navin View Post

Then why don't RD and Kenny ride it?

Great question! Couple weeks ago the 250f last place qualifier would have been 29th in the "premier" 450 class. That just doesn't make sense. I recall a few times the 125 star would be close to the 250 class lap times, might have been faster a few times? Now the times are close enough not to matter.

The 250s and 350s/450 you can throw a blanket over. Too close at this point.
Navin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2014, 09:27 PM   #1853
zenjen
Go Outside
 
zenjen's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Quartz Mtn. West end of the Wichitas
Oddometer: 2,596
Quote:
Originally Posted by nachtflug View Post
Like when they all go quiet when you ask them why RV was a one man wrecking machine prior to 2010 without his wonder trainer, the zenjens and his ilk just don't get it,.
You still don't understand?
zenjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2014, 02:15 AM   #1854
natedog39
New Sheriff in town
 
natedog39's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: ravena new york
Oddometer: 5,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by nachtflug View Post
yes I've got all that. now try to pay attention.

Nate made the statement (since removed) that the step up from the 250's to the 450's is a big one.

to which while I agree that to be true they have also in effect diminished the brightness of the star that used to be the 250 class that ran in the 70's/80'/90's.

back in the 70's since Honda and Kawasaki either didn't have an open class bike (Honda) or dropped it for a few years (KX450/400) the 250 class with Gary Jones, Tony D, Hannah, Howerton, all capturing consecutive titles was kind of the premier class, and it carried into SX, proven by the fact that the only years there was a 500 SX class was 74/75, while the 250 SX class ran from 74 to 2004, so again, for Nate to say that the step from the 250's to the 450's is a big step, it's only FAIR TO POINT OUT THAT THE 250 CLASS USED TO BE THE PREMIER CLASS ALL THING CONSIDERED.
Actually what I said was the step from the lights class to the 450's was a big one.
If we were to go back in time as you seem to insist it would be the 125 class to the 250 class.
Its only fair to point out The 125 class was never the "premier"class
The point was it takes more strength and stamina to ride a more powerfull machine. (and for more laps in supercross)
Hence the need for a personal trainer.
__________________
People say I'm not a people person, I say how can I be a people person when I hate people. -Joe R

2014 FE 501
natedog39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2014, 03:46 AM   #1855
LocuL
Gnarly Infantry
 
LocuL's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: Denmark - Jutland
Oddometer: 1,110
I would like to see Cairoli go full out on the 350 in AMA MX. Just for fun.

Didn´t KR ride the 350 at some event(Monster, or some outdoor event) and performed pretty well.

__________________
KTM 950(1190) Adv-s, Soon to be Project 1190
KTM 530 EXC-R 08
LocuL is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2014, 04:13 AM   #1856
nachtflug
infidel
 
nachtflug's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2002
Location: New York
Oddometer: 44,709
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnee Bill View Post
yes I've got all that. now try to pay attention.

What is today LABELED the 250 class is in no way the class that was LABELED the 250 class before the advent of the 4 stroke.

Just because it has the same name does NOT make it the same class.


.

.
to a point but comparing todays 250 class to the 125 class is a waste of time and you're old enough to know that.
nachtflug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2014, 04:14 AM   #1857
nachtflug
infidel
 
nachtflug's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2002
Location: New York
Oddometer: 44,709
Quote:
Originally Posted by zenjen View Post
You still don't understand?
your silence is deafening.
nachtflug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2014, 04:53 AM   #1858
troy safari carpente
Team f5ool
 
troy safari carpente's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Location: f5ederation of scandwegia
Oddometer: 16,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by nachtflug View Post
to a point but comparing todays 250 class to the 125 class is a waste of time and you're old enough to know that.
We are talking - for the purposes of this debate - about AMA Supercross racing... right?

Now all the "back and forth" has been quite entertaining, and the diverse information/viewpoints about the 2 vs 4 stroke in MX/SX, the demise of the 500cc 2 stroke in outdoor motocross circles and the acquired "heir apparent" status of the 450cc 4 stroke, once it de-throned the 250cc mx'er has been enthralling... albeit a tad irrelevant (outdoors/nationals) as this thread is about Supercross (indoors).

But when it comes to comparing today's Monster/AMA supercross 250 (4 stroke) lites east/west series with the former 125cc (2 stroke) east/west supercross series... THAT's EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE... a direct comparison! They fill EXACTLY the same roll in the grand scheme of things, for the sport of Supercross... ie. as the support or "feeder class" to the premier class - which was (once upon a time) the CAMEL/AMA 250cc (2 stroke) Supercross class... and is now in the modern era (thanks to the 4 stroke revolution) the playground of the 450cc 4 stroke and home to the best SX racers on the planet.

Just as McGrath, Bradshaw, Emig, Carmichael, Antunez, Matasievitch... etc. ad- infinitum, all cut their teeth on the 125cc east vs west series before they made the step up and graduated to the "pro" 250 2 stroke class - (a.k.a. the "premier" class - as it was at that time - in Supercoss). So too today, the Vilopoto's, Barcia's, Wilson's and Ciancarillo's etc. all earn their stripes in the 250cc "lites" class, before moving on into the "big show" with the established stars on 450's...? And I was of the understanding that (amongst others) is what Shawnee Bill has been on about the whole time?

I'm at a loss to what all the agro is about?

Oh... that's right... it's the interwebby...
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy John

"There is a difference between constructive criticism and plain rudeness."


Quote:
Originally Posted by zenjen

"It's like deja vu all over again."
troy safari carpente is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2014, 05:17 AM   #1859
frog
Beastly Adventurer
 
frog's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2004
Location: Heber City, UT
Oddometer: 2,727
Year after year, month after month its the same argument. Some people in this thread need to step away from the keyboard and go riding.
__________________
Thank you MX1WEST, Highway Dirt Bikes Lindsay Machine, Smart Performance, SPS for the Support
257x Solo Baja 1000
If I had not some strength of will I would make a first class drunkard--Shackleton

frog screwed with this post 02-24-2014 at 09:44 AM
frog is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2014, 05:41 AM   #1860
enduro0125
Sticks and Stones™..
 
enduro0125's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: Orchard Park,NY
Oddometer: 12,466
“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”


― Mark Twain
__________________
AMA 487807A
enduro0125 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 01:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014