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Old 03-05-2014, 10:04 PM   #2296
SchizzMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
F44 (more commonly known as JP5) is jet turbine fuel and is mostly kerosene. No piston-engine motorcycle would run on it, at least not for very long.

Chasing higher octane, some folks have used avgas in a motorcycle (e.g., 100LL or F18), but it typically has a prohibitively high lead content and is illegal in most locales. I'm not aware of any unusual corrosion issues with avgas.

- Mark
+1

Nothing "corrosive" in avgas. You can wash your hands in 100LL and it will evaporate off clean. Did so for years after every pre-flight check.

Ghostrider said "goodbye" to his cat THEN started running 100LL recently. Added 9 mph to his top end and 6 mpg to his mileage ('07 GSA). Folks with high performance engines (boats, bikes, cars, etc.) have been topping off at GA airports for years with fuel cards like AeroShell.
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:58 PM   #2297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchizzMan View Post
Ghostrider said "goodbye" to his cat THEN started running 100LL recently. Added 9 mph to his top end and 6 mpg to his mileage ('07 GSA). Folks with high performance engines (boats, bikes, cars, etc.) have been topping off at GA airports for years with fuel cards like AeroShell.
Did he also get rid of his O2 sensors? The lead in 100LL doesn't go well with O2 sensors. Especially as 100LL is currently about 1.2..2.0 grams of TEL per gallon. Leaded automotive gas used to be 0.1 grams TEL/gallon.
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Old 03-05-2014, 11:24 PM   #2298
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That's a good question. Didn't think to ask. Will follow up with him soon.
I'll also check to see if the new Lycoming A/C engines have O2 sensors.
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Old 03-06-2014, 12:05 AM   #2299
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Originally Posted by SchizzMan View Post
I'll also check to see if the new Lycoming A/C engines have O2 sensors.
In a general aviation piston engine? I'd guess we're about five decades from having such radical new technology. We're just now starting to get rid of magnetos.

Back to using avgas in a bike, as someone has already pointed out, there is a awfully high level of lead in avgas (even 100LL which is "low lead" only in comparison with the ridiculous amount of lead in earlier avgas). Even if poisoning the cat or O2 sensor is not a concern, that's still a lot of lead being ingested in an engine that is radically different in size and operating characteristics from a GA piston engine. (And lead-fouling is still a big issue in GA with 50-hr plug cleanings usually required to get rid of the lead deposits.) And then there is the usual debate about whether higher octane does any good in an engine not designed for it. Not to mention the $6.50/gal (in the US) prices. I wouldn't use it except in a pinch.

BTW, 100LL is actually about 96 octane if measured by the R+M/2 method used for US pump gas.

- Mark

markjenn screwed with this post 03-06-2014 at 12:23 AM
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Old 03-06-2014, 12:29 AM   #2300
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Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
In a general aviation piston engine? I'd guess we're about five decades from having such radical new technology. We're just now starting to get rid of magnetos.
FADEC A/C engines have been out for many years using O2 sensors which have a compelling history of being done in by the lead in avgas.

So saith Google. Amen.

Good catch, marchyman.
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Old 03-06-2014, 12:45 AM   #2301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
In a general aviation piston engine? I'd guess we're about five decades from having such radical new technology. We're just now starting to get rid of magnetos.

Back to using avgas in a bike, as someone has already pointed out, there is a awfully high level of lead in avgas (even 100LL which is "low lead" only in comparison with the ridiculous amount of lead in earlier avgas). Even if poisoning the cat or O2 sensor is not a concern, that's still a lot of lead being ingested in an engine that is radically different in size and operating characteristics from a GA piston engine. (And lead-fouling is still a big issue in GA with 50-hr plug cleanings usually required to get rid of the lead deposits.) And then there is the usual debate about whether higher octane does any good in an engine not designed for it. Not to mention the $6.50/gal (in the US) prices. I wouldn't use it except in a pinch.

BTW, 100LL is actually about 96 octane if measured by the R+M/2 method used for US pump gas.

- Mark
Piston engines are still used in general aviation. We've got some 2-seater piston engined planes used for training purposes. But everythiing else uses a turbine. Either turboprop or turbofan.

And the price isn't relevant here. For our regular fuel we pay around $8 a gallon in Europe.

But short conclusion. Don't use avgas in your bike, specially in a new GSA. You will ruin it.
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Old 03-06-2014, 12:46 AM   #2302
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Originally Posted by SchizzMan View Post
FADEC A/C engines have been out for many years using O2 sensors which have a compelling history of being done in by the lead in avgas.
For piston engines and certified (not experimental)? Color me skeptical.

- Mark
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Old 03-06-2014, 12:50 AM   #2303
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Originally Posted by IB1 View Post
Piston engines are still used in general aviation. We've got some 2-seater piston engined planes used for training purposes. But everythiing else uses a turbine. Either turboprop or turbofan.
Not sure how wide a net you are casting with "we've got", but piston engines are still heavily used in general aviation for all but the upper end of the market - you can still buy new piston singles and twins with six-seats or so and turbines don't start penetrating the market until you get into corporate aviation with $2M+ pricetags.

- Mark
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Old 03-06-2014, 03:58 AM   #2304
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Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
Not sure how wide a net you are casting with "we've got", but piston engines are still heavily used in general aviation for all but the upper end of the market - you can still buy new piston singles and twins with six-seats or so and turbines don't start penetrating the market until you get into corporate aviation with $2M+ pricetags.

- Mark
In europe piston engines (in aircrafts) are normally only used for training or recreational purposes. I've worked some time on our mayor airport and we never had piston engines aircraft flying over. Since this is a heavily populated area lower cost/small distance transports are done via road, rail or water, so the low end air transport doesn't really exist here.
Our smallest aircafts are twin engine, 8 passenger luxury business jets for VIP transport.
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:38 AM   #2305
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I know for a fact that the 04-12 R1200 series have antiknock sensors, and am almost positive the new Wetheads also have them.
No WGS doesn't have.
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Old 03-06-2014, 05:36 AM   #2306
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Originally Posted by SchizzMan View Post
FADEC A/C engines have been out for many years using O2 sensors which have a compelling history of being done in by the lead in avgas.

So saith Google. Amen.

Good catch, marchyman.
Fadec is an acronym for full authority digital engine controll. It is used on newer turbine engines. I have never seen an o2 sensor on a turbine engine. There is no need. The more fuel you pour into a turbine the more power it produces. With out protection devices you could add fuel until the engine oversped or melted. I dont know if GA recips are using anythig that advanced or not.
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Old 03-06-2014, 07:04 AM   #2307
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Diesel

Only the very few and new diesel engines use a FADEC.

Felipe
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Old 03-06-2014, 07:54 AM   #2308
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I'm going to avoid Avgas personally. Don't want to have that conversation with the dealer in event of warranty. I have 8 gallons at 43mpg on high oct and will only run low grade and corn when I have to. One reason for going GSA was being able to go further to be more selective on gas stop out West in places like NM.

I did run Shell racing fuel in an old Sportster once. The iron engine was designed for unleaded and as it was slowly removed from our supply I lost significant power and it ran way too hot. The racing gas didn't help horsepower any but sure made it run a lot smoother. I tried it on my Mille R several years ago and scared me with white smoke and gray exhaust. I would have thought it would have run better with it.

Staying with pure and simple highest octane gas when possible.
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:48 PM   #2309
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Originally Posted by Joachim View Post
That sounds different to my issue. Mine will always catch on the second attempt instantly. I'm hoping for a software update maybe?
I've noticed the same thing on mine. I just figured they all do that
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Old 03-06-2014, 09:52 PM   #2310
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Originally Posted by smr238 View Post
Fadec is an acronym for full authority digital engine controll. It is used on newer turbine engines. I have never seen an o2 sensor on a turbine engine. There is no need. The more fuel you pour into a turbine the more power it produces. With out protection devices you could add fuel until the engine oversped or melted. I dont know if GA recips are using anythig that advanced or not.
If I'd known mentioning FADEC would take the thread to the topic of diesel I would never have brought it up. My apologies. But, yes, there are FADEC piston A/C engines that burn avgas. I think the only relevant points raised so far relate to leaded fuels compromising the cat and O2 sensors.

Moving on.......
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